I LOVE winter here, couldn't live without it. Yes, I love the cold. Dress properly and it is quite enjoyable.

I'm by no means "rich" but I make well into six figures in software and I love this area and would find it hard to move anywhere else.

Occasionally I visit one of my clients that is in Silicon Valley. While California is absolutely gorgeous in certain areas I find the highways and dreary brown awful for the most part. The only time I really enjoy it is in very early spring (Feb-Apr) when it is green for a short period of time.

Minnesota seems to be almost Scandinavian in some aspects and I do find it absolutely beautiful.

I think that within a 10 km radius of my parents', there are at least 4 streets that are named "mosquito [lane,street,road]" and by god are they aptly named (in the summertime).

The great state of Michigan would like to have a word with you.

It also has high taxes and cost of living.

Wait a minute, are we still talking about the Midwest of the United States? Because high taxes and COL are the last two things I think of when I think “Midwest”.

But cold, flat, and boring I’ll grant you. I don’t live in Indiana anymore for good reason.

This article asserts that Illinois has the highest overall tax burden in the nation: https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-has-highest-overall-...

Also this article shows Effective total state and local taxes in 2017. Illinois ranks the highest at $8,011 median per household, while California ranks almost at the bottom, at $4,774: https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer...

Okay, but if you look closer I bet you can see the problem there. That chart refers to the "Median US Household" defined thus: annual income of $54,286 (mean third quintile U.S. income); owns a home valued at $178,600 (median U.S. home value). In Silicon Valley, that comparison would be between someone earning poverty-level wages who inherited a shack on the edge of town versus a reasonably comfortable midwesterner.

In this comparison between IL and CA we're making, the cost of living and real estate completely dwarfs the tax burden in its effect on the lower ranks in Northern CA. The difference in income tax would be hugely in favor of IL if you were at the very high end. Perhaps there's some middle ground where IL looks worse in the comparison, but I wonder if you'd really be better off financially in California. (edit: Northern California)

That being said, the compensation in California is a lot, lot higher to help offset that, at least for our field. But I'm still not too interested in moving out there because I would have to basically give up on owning a home for quite some time, whereas I can afford to buy a nice house in the suburbs right now in Chicago. Also other reasons, like all my friends and family are here.

But, the property taxes are so high here that a lot of people pay more in taxes than they do on their mortgage, which is just odd. I could get a place equally far away from Chicago but over the border in Indiana and be paying almost a third as much in property taxes.

Most of my family and friends are also there, but it was a lot better for my financial future and retirement to move away, enough that it was worth leaving friends and family behind.

Illinois has the highest move out rate of any state. And the average income of people moving in is almost 20k lower than the average for people moving out. The government is also in tatters and the college system is languishing from lack of funding. It has one of the highest rates of students going to school out of state and college costs are astronomical because the state doesn't even give their public universities much.

Corruption in the Illinois government is unbelievably bad and the state is basically run by Madigan and a network of powerful unions with historic mob ties.

IMO you're probably much better off in Indiana financially if you're looking at your and potentially children's financial futures. I would really do the COL math before you buy a house there.

My disposable income increased from essentially zero to about 35k a year from a strategic move to a state with higher software engineer demand and much lower tax burden.

And I'll admit, it's rather nice being close to family for simple things, like having someone who you can trust to come by and take care of your dog so you can head out all day, rather than being forced to board him. If we're going to have children in the next couple of years, we'll have free babysitting help, which I hear from other parents is worth a whole lot more to your sanity than a higher salary.

And between the two of us, we do alright financially. We are tighter than we'd like to be, but that's mainly due to both of us still having student loans to pay off than anything else. Once those are paid off we'll have a lot more breathing room (although that will still be a few years).

But the job climate is pretty bad here, I'll agree. I'm not really looking forward to my next job search. I probably should start looking already, but the last two were pretty rough, so I'm not looking forward to it and have been dragging my feet getting started.

I also know first hand how tough the universities have it right now, as I used to work for one and I have family that still works at one. I've heard that the state has been as much as a year behind on the money they're supposed to be paying the public schools.

Also there was the proposed bill to privatize all the public universities put up a year ago I think, which to me is the most ludicrous idea ever and I'm surprised he was taken seriously.

Free babysitting help is worth a lot, but depending on your wife's career it still might make financial sense to move. If you're in the Chicago area like most people in Illinois, Indiana is doing great(for the Midwest), and Michigan's economy is still way better than Illinois. Madison is a tech hotspot and a great place to raise a family too.

Two out of three software companies I interviewed at in Illinois shuttered their offices in the state in the last two years. The companies that are staying are all going downtown. Software jobs are pretty damn rare out in the suburbs and it was definitely a bunch of 'take what you can get' shittily run companies because they could be.

I'd be tempted to make the commute from Indiana to Chicago. Isn't there a train for it and everything? The commute's no worse than many in CA, although I suspect for a native it's viewed as a little extreme. (and of course, there's a lot to be said for actually living in Chicago)

All those well-heeled Manhattanites might have something to say about that.

For me it's not even the heat that's the problem, it's the goddamn smell of hot garbage. At least the outer boroughs are better in that regard to Manhattan.

Summer can be gross in the middle of Manhattan due to the density and trash smells, but Brooklyn was just fine.

Snow is an issue if you live in the suburbs and need to drive everywhere, I'll grant you that.

Miami Beach and even Cancun are a short flight away.

Source: nostalgic ex-NYer now living somewhere with a "good climate."

Ehhhhhh, about 15 minutes after the first snow you prep yourself for spending the next 5 months or so sloshing through giant deep puddles of pitch-black semi-frozen slush. Plus everything ends up with a fine dusting of road salt.

Source: six years in Manhattan.

The Chicago metro area has almost 9.5 million residents, 2.8 in the city proper. The larger Great Lakes Basin, depending on how you look at it, has anywhere from 35 to 60 million residents.

> cheap COL

Chicago can be pricey, but almost every other major city in the region is around 20% less costly than Austin (using Austin since it's got the largest pull of your mentioned alternatives).