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Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by jimnotgym on Friday December 15, 2017 @03:09AM (#15930349)
After years of rubbish in the UK press about the impact of regulations from the EU, they can add protecting fish, bird and most likely human health to the list of 'harm' done. I'm glad the EU still cares about the environment.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by akhatri_aus on Friday December 15, 2017 @05:37AM (#15930904)
The UK is still in the EU and yet the river is still polluted.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by outsideoflife on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:01AM (#15931440)
The EU have been trying to ban neonicotinoids for some time. The UK voted against it. This is mentioned in the comments below
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by fiftyacorn on Friday December 15, 2017 @06:01AM (#15930985)
I think he means it will get worse when we leave EU
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by akhatri_aus on Friday December 15, 2017 @06:13AM (#15931023)
That's speculative though isn't it? The rules could be better outside of the EU if equivalence is used (and judged from statements this week) and the EU standards would simply be the baseline.

The EU hasn't been a panacea thus far, particularly with the environment. The strongest influence they've had is with personal rights & freedoms but there have consistently been lapses when it comes to the environment. They refuse to pound down on coal in Eastern Europe/Northern Greece & overlooking Diesel-gate are just more recent ones.

The only thing that can help the environment is if green politicians get a sufficient vote in the country involved

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by outsideoflife on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:10AM (#15931501)
> That's speculative though isn't it?

Not exactly, here have been very strong comments from some in the government that suggest that Britain is going to add environmental regulations to the 'bonfire of the regulations'.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-regu...

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by tolien on Friday December 15, 2017 @06:28AM (#15931077)
You’re right that it’s speculative (the UK will retain the laws created by the directives into UK law as part of the “Great” Repeal Bill so nothing might change) but the UK could have higher standards already - the EU directive sets a minimum requirement, not a maximum.

Diesel-gate is a different issue and highlights the weakness of recognising other countries’ testing standards without setting sufficiently stringent regulations to ensure that testing was valid. The problem was that member states weren’t required to do their own testing but to trust that whoever did it had done it correctly while incentivising the testing state to be lenient lest they lose the payments to perform tests.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by toyg on Friday December 15, 2017 @06:34AM (#15931103)
I’m not sure you’re familiar with the UK situation.

The country has no green tradition, it was dragged into modern practices kicking and screaming by German and Scandinavian-inspired EU regulations. Their rivers and beaches only started looking clean in the early ‘00s.

The Cameron government promised to be “the greenest ever” and failed to deliver on all accounts, dropping the whole issue after less than a year in power; the current one doesn’t really have a green policy at all, unless you count “build on greenfields” as such.

Because of the hardcore first-past-post electoral system, green parties in England are happy when they manage to elect 1 MP and maybe throw enough races against Labour that “reds” have to listen a bit; but in the meantime they get a Tory government that is naturally pro-business and anti-environment. The only real influence they can have is by winning seats in the proportionally-assigned EU Parliament, where they gang up with the more numerous Eurogreens and deeply influence actual regulations.

Leaving the EU is a tragedy for UK greens, and it will kill any semblance of environmental policy in the country.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by chrisseaton on Friday December 15, 2017 @06:58AM (#15931200)
> a Tory government that is naturally pro-business and anti-environment

Almost nobody in the world is 'anti-environment'. That's a ludicrous claim. Many people think other things matter more than the environment, or don't care about the environment at all, sure, but if you think any people, let alone major political parties, are working against the environment deliberately for its own sake I think you're barmy.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by pmyteh on Friday December 15, 2017 @07:10AM (#15931239)
It may be phrased infelicitously, but I think thinking more-or-less any other good is worth more counts as anti-environmental, given that politics is an endless series of tradeoffs.

I mean, in the same sense that socialists are often seen as anti-business. It's not so much that they dislike businesses per se (most of us in the social democratic tradition see markets and those who operate in them as an important source of wealth and innovation) but that, given a choice, they would direct government spending to more-or-less anything other than making business owners richer.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by dkarl on Friday December 15, 2017 @10:35AM (#15932483)
That's a very rational analysis, but I think a factor that is more relevant to politics is people's strong gut reaction to issues. Some people reflexively oppose all efforts to protect the environment. I'm very liberal, so I have a lot of friends who reflexively support all government regulation of business, without bothering to know the specifics. I would call them anti-business. Or if you tell someone there was a police shooting last night and the first thing they say is "Fucking cops!" instead of "What happened?" then I think you could call them anti-police.

Maybe if you ask them rationally what their opinion is, it will come out pretty balanced, but that standard glosses over a lot of deeply rooted bias.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by chrisseaton on Friday December 15, 2017 @10:42AM (#15932545)
I think the real issue is that people think they are pro-environment, and so think that people they disagree with on related issues must surely then be the opposite - anti-environment. I think it’s a sad indication of how polarised people think things are and how little they try to understand and be reasonable.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by pjc50 on Friday December 15, 2017 @07:05AM (#15931226)
There are definitely people who are anti-environmentalist, for whatever reason - seeing the environmentalists as on the other side of the culture war. The environment itself is not at issue, just the opposition to those humans who are in favour of environmental protection.

Resulting in stupid stunts like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal which really is pollution for its own sake.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by ptaipale on Friday December 15, 2017 @10:13AM (#15932339)
Or, the opposition to those humans who they perceive are using shoddy claims of being in favour of environmental protection when advocating for other reasons their policies which might in fact be harmful for environment.

Typical examples of this culture war are nuclear power and GMO agriculture. The scientific consensus is settled: using GMOs in agriculture would be better for environment, but nevertheless it is the "environmentalists" who particularly oppose them.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by pjc50 on Friday December 15, 2017 @10:35AM (#15932486)
> The scientific consensus is settled

Is it? I'm not aware of the GMO counterpart of the IPCC here and, unlike the question of global warming, there is a problem with Monsanto-funded studies muddying the waters.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by ptaipale on Sunday December 17, 2017 @10:27AM (#15946077)
There is a rather good summary of the settled science here:

http://nas-sites.org/ge-crops/2016/05/17/report/

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by pbhjpbhj on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:10AM (#15931502)
You're right, not anti-environment just completely uncaring provided their supporters/patrons make more profits.

Your argument is like saying if I sit and watch my friend beat you up, not intervening because he promised me a few quid, then I'm blameless and not "anti" you in any way.

You're quibbling over semantics whilst we're trying to shine light on the destruction of irreplaceable natural resources, and pollution of our environment that will harm future generations.

If you can show Tories will preference the environment over business interests [of their donors, members] then please do so; this present argument is unhelpful.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by chrisseaton on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:36AM (#15931663)
> You're quibbling over semantics

I never understand what people mean by this criticism. I'm debating people based on the words they use and what they mean by using those words... and that's a bad thing? What else you would like me to debate them on instead? Their syntax and grammar?

And my local Conservative councillors seems to Tweet mainly about school funding and how important is is to preserve the green belt for the sake of the environment, so there you go.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by pbhjpbhj on Saturday December 16, 2017 @12:11PM (#15940389)
Complaining about "quibbling over semantics" is to say your arguing about how the issue is expressed rather than the substantive parts of the issue.

Many people, such as myself, want positive action to protect the environment from damage to essential ecosystems, want preservation of green spaces, protection of native species, and such like.

Saying "the videos aren't making policies to actively harm the environment and do they're not anti-environment"is to entirely miss the substance of the argument which is that they're not doing enough to protect it and are seemingly ignoring environmental issues when profits can be made.

One often finds councillors at odds with the party as they focus much more on local issues. Conservative councillors in rural areas will be inclined to protect green belt, counter village in-fill developments, oppose fracking, etc, despite these being things the Tories as a party support (because: profits).

Tories are strong on rhetoric wrt green belt, just weak on protection.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by 7952 on Friday December 15, 2017 @07:47AM (#15931369)
The word "environment" has become ridiculously overused and can seemingly refer to a whole grab bag of different issues. And sometimes it is accompanied by an effort to depoliticise contraversial issues. So that we don't talk about them and conform to the "correct" line. This just alienates people who could have been supportive on particular single issues. As people learn more about these issues they will hopefully have a more nuanced understanding and opinions.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by auxym on Friday December 15, 2017 @07:22AM (#15931278)
Americans who enjoy "rolling coal" come to mind.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by astura on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:35AM (#15931661)
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by chrisseaton on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:41AM (#15931703)
That's anti-environmentalism. It literally says so in the title. That's not the same thing as anti-environment. They're against environmentalist activists.

> Environmentalism, as a movement, is an alternative world view and a substitute for Christianity.

They aren't against the environment itself. I'm sure they don't particularly care about it, but they don't hate the environment for the sake of it as far as I can see.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by dazc on Friday December 15, 2017 @06:07AM (#15931006)
The article implies this is pretty much a worldwide problem and doesn't say what other countries are blighted, bar a strong hint at the Netherlands (also in the EU)?
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by Hendrikto on Friday December 15, 2017 @06:22AM (#15931055)
Did you even read the article?

> EU vote to extend the ban to all outdoor uses is expected soon.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by jwilk on Friday December 15, 2017 @02:00PM (#15934138)
From the HN guidelines:

Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by akhatri_aus on Friday December 15, 2017 @06:32AM (#15931093)
Did you? The runoff still comes out of greenhouses where the insecticide will be allowed to be used after the ban. What the article implies is the ban will have little effect & advocates a total ban. Commercial interests won.

> The proposed EU ban would still allow neonicotinoids to be used in greenhouses and as a flea treatment for pets. A new Greenpeace study suggests neonicotinoids are frequently found in waterways close to greenhouses where they have been used.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by posterboy on Friday December 15, 2017 @07:38AM (#15931327)
How's that supposed to happen? I'd suspect drainage would flow vertically into the ground water. Is the water table as high as to level with the river so the pesticide can move sideways?
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by jdmichal on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:02AM (#15931452)
A river's depth is basically defined by the water table. That's how it stays full of water instead of simply draining into the ground. The first diagram on the Wiki article for water tables shows this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_table

(The first time I heard this was a big "aha" / "of course it works that way, how else would it work" moment for me. Ala XKCD 10000 [0]. Hopefully you're one of today's lucky winners!)

[0] https://www.xkcd.com/1053/

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by Retric on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:56AM (#15931784)
Most ground > flowing water interaction happens at streams, but overall this is correct.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by TheSpiceIsLife on Friday December 15, 2017 @07:40AM (#15931339)
Yep!

A drainage basin or 'catchment area' is any area of land where precipitation collects and drains off into a common outlet, such as into a river, bay, or other body of water. The drainage basin includes all the surface water from rain runoff, snowmelt, and nearby streams that run downslope towards the shared outlet, as well as the groundwater underneath the earth's surface.[1] Drainage basins connect into other drainage basins at lower elevations in a hierarchical pattern, with smaller sub-drainage basins, which in turn drain into another common outlet.[1]

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drainage_basin

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by vixen99 on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:17AM (#15930582)
What regulation and what 'caring' (in this instance)? "No official limits exists in the EU for neonicotinoid pollution in freshwater".
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by Red_Tarsius on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:47AM (#15930707)
> In 2012, the European Commission asked the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) to study the safety of three neonicotinoids, in response to growing concerns about the impact of neonicotinoids on honey bees. The study was published in January 2013, stating that neonicotinoids pose an unacceptably high risk to bees...

> In response to the study, the European Commission recommended a restriction of their use across the European Union. On 29 April 2013, 15 of the 27 EU member states voted to restrict the use of three neonicotinoids for two years starting 1 December 2013.

> The UK, which voted against the bill, disagreed: "Having a healthy bee population is a top priority for us, but we did not support the proposal for a ban because our scientific evidence doesn’t support it."

> The decision was up for review in 2016. In March 2017, The Guardian printed an article which claimed that they had obtained information that indicated that the European commission wants a complete ban and cite "high acute risks to bees". A ban could be in place this year (2017) if the proposals are approved by a majority of EU member states

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid#Europe

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by arm85 on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:38AM (#15930666)
No but they did attempt to ban neonicotinoids across Europe, against stiff opposition from the UK government.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by pbhjpbhj on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:15AM (#15931539)
I'm interested in which donor made them oppose it? Presumably one of those who is driving Brexit so they can pay off the Tories and get further protections (of people, environment) removed; aka "recover our sovereignty".
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by damal on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:08AM (#15930553)
Different countries have different priorities. That's the good thing about sovereignty. Don't like your current government's ideas? Replace them at the next election. On the other hand, you don't like the EU's ideas? Um... good luck with that. Just be glad that the EU's been relatively benign so far.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by titzer on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:49AM (#15930717)
Yeah! Don't like your country's air pollution controls? Just move next door! Problem solved.

Sorry to mock you, but environmental concerns affect us all. Earth is one giant connected system; everything eventually influences everything else. It's just a matter of the latency of the connections. Pollution is something we need to tackle globally, because many types of pollutants don't break down naturally or necessarily become less dangerous. On the contrary, many continue to accumulate and are concentrated by natural processes into places where water drains--this is why we find these things in rivers and lakes first, and in the highest concentrations. They are everywhere, tho.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by wav-part on Friday December 15, 2017 @05:07AM (#15930791)
Strawman. Anti-BigGovernment != Anti-Environment.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by orf on Friday December 15, 2017 @05:11AM (#15930809)
Sure, but in reality those go hand in hand.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by wav-part on Friday December 15, 2017 @05:32AM (#15930890)
Lets say I disagree with EU-enfoced regulation ? Do you count it as anti-environement ? What if agree to same regulation if enfoced by UK ?

Point is, its about who enforcing it not what. If even that does not fix your observations, I would like to request some proof/citations.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by tolien on Friday December 15, 2017 @05:47AM (#15930933)
The EU doesn’t enforce the regulations anyway, member states do through their respective agencies. In this case, the Environment Agency and/or Scottish EPA will have responsibility.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by adrianN on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:22AM (#15930598)
I think my chances of changing my country's government if I don't like it are pretty much the same as changing the EU.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by pbhjpbhj on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:19AM (#15931569)
In the UK, I think chances of getting workers rights, privacy, consumer rights, environmental issues, etc., passed in the EU is far far greater than getting any such thing passed by the Tories.

That's entirely expected, the EU as a whole is more liberal, more green, and more socialist than the Tories.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by Moru on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:26AM (#15930615)
It's the difference of (1/country population) and (1/511,805,088). So slightly higher chance changing your countrys government. But you have the added bonus of having the same language, good luck with that in the EU... :-)
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by Scarblac on Friday December 15, 2017 @05:07AM (#15930793)
You personally can't change your government, you only have one vote. Many voters together can change it.

That's not really different in the EU.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by giobox on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:32AM (#15930644)
> Just be glad that the EU's been relatively benign so far.

The creation of free movement of people, goods, services and capital across 28 States and creating a common currency used by many of them is arguably not “benign”.

For avoidance of doubt I’m in no way expressing an opinion on the merits of these - simply that it is not benign in the sense of having done nothing.

Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by pjc50 on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:48AM (#15930713)
I wonder what your opinion is of the free movement of people, goods, services and capital across 48 states?
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by kybernetikos on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:42AM (#15930682)
Those things sound fantastic.
Re:English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests re... by kybernetikos on Friday December 15, 2017 @05:32AM (#15930892)
> that it is not benign in the sense of having done nothing.

I think that you're using the word in a pretty unusual way there, perhaps inspired by medical usage. 'benign' comes from the latin meaning 'good', and has the same root as 'benefactor', 'beneficial', 'benefit' or 'bonus'. In its nonmedical sense it almost always refers to something being good, not having negligible effect.