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Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by chatmasta on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @02:06PM (#15854671)
God forbid we improve existing tools. What exactly is your problem here? Do you think we should all be using the Borland C++ compiler too?
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by JepZ on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @06:27PM (#15857147)
I think the problem is less that there are new tools, but that the new tool comes promising to make the very much what the old tool did, just with much less configuration and smart defaults. But as soon as you start using that new tools for a while the once smart defaults are not so smart anymore (as requirements have slightly changed) and you start configuring it more and more and after a while you have the same mess of customization as with the old tool until someone comes up with a newer tool that has newer smart default and so on...

Its not necessarily bad as most new tools are slightly better than their predecessors, it just takes some getting use to and you have to learn how to structure your code base in a way that you do not have to completely refactor it every time a new build tool is adapted ;-)

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by icholy on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @02:13PM (#15854753)
Change != Improvement.
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by chatmasta on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @02:15PM (#15854773)
Does the release of parcel mean you can no longer use webpack, or gulp, or grunt or whatever you’re using now?

If you don’t like a new tool, don’t use it. I can’t stand this kind of meritless complaints. If you’ve got a problem with the implementation of a new tool, that’s understandable. But to take issue with its existence? That’s just petty and a waste of everyone’s time.

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by coldtea on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @04:01PM (#15855929)
>Does the release of parcel mean you can no longer use webpack, or gulp, or grunt or whatever you’re using now?

If it takes away from their community and momentum, then yes.

Attention in FOSS is close to a zero-sum game.

Not to mention when the devs themselves get bored with tool X they've created and jump to creating some newer tool Y, dropping the whole community...

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by hk__2 on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @05:03PM (#15856458)
> Not to mention when the devs themselves get bored with tool X they've created and jump to creating some newer tool Y, dropping the whole community...

Given that you don’t pay for the product I don’t see anything wrong here. People work on what they want then change if they’re bored; you can’t do anything about that but pay them to continue supporting the tool you decided to use.

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by coldtea on Wednesday December 06, 2017 @04:07AM (#15859685)
>Given that you don’t pay for the product I don’t see anything wrong here

Things might not be wrong and still be a problem. E.g. your neighbor practicing tuba (badly) during the whole day, in perfectly legal hours...

In fact someone can gift stuff with the best intentions, and still cause a problem.

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by brucephillips on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @05:54PM (#15856868)
> you can’t do anything about that

You can. You can encourage developers to contribute to a single project, rather than create fragmentation, which is exactly what's happening in this forum.

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by ricardobeat on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @08:14PM (#15857724)
Webpack doesn't seem to have a shortage of contributions. What is your real concern?
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by brucephillips on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @08:24PM (#15857771)
1) A fragmentation of targets for complementary products. Any tool that must integrate with bundlers now has one more target.

2) A fragmentation of development efforts across competing projects. Webpack has many contributors, but they'd have 1 more if the author of Parcel built parallelism into Webpack instead of a new bundler.

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by hk__2 on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @06:01PM (#15856926)
Yes, you can. But you can’t force them if they don’t want it.
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by brucephillips on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @06:09PM (#15856992)
K. Who's forcing anyone?
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by hk__2 on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @06:23PM (#15857125)
Nobody’s forcing anyone but a lot of people including the parent comment complain when someone doesn’t want to work for free on the tool they use. Encourage people if you want, but don’t complain if they don’t listen.
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by brucephillips on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @06:33PM (#15857209)
By all means, do. People complain about things that make their lives worse, especially when it's avoidable, as it is in this case. There's nothing wrong with that.
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by pbreit on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @11:16PM (#15858445)
You can encourage them to instead work on improvements to existing tools.
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by transpostmeta on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @05:03PM (#15856469)
Oh, so if you don't pay for a tool you can't control the development of it? How unexpected!
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by coldtea on Wednesday December 06, 2017 @04:13AM (#15859709)
First, nobody said it's "unexpected". We said that such a change is inconvenient for the user of the tool, which is trivially true -- whether they can/desire to control the development or not.

Second, even τηε premise of it being "unexpected" is not 100% true. None dev communities influence the development of projects all the times -- projects even have special voting boards for people to vote what features they want next etc.

Besides, it's very possible to not pay for a tool and still have a voice in the development of it. It just takes the development team to be willing to hear their userbase.

Last, but not least, direct payment is not the only/ultimate influence a user can exert on a project. Some FOSS projects are made by companies that want them to see wide adoption, so user complaints (of non coding users) matter very much -- things like Mongo for example.

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by lhorie on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @06:50PM (#15857316)
> If it takes away from their community and momentum

In my experience, what is more common is that people who would otherwise not contribute to an existing project for whatever reasons (e.g. complexity, bad experience w/ maintainer, etc) start contributing to a new project because these younger projects are generally more approachable.

People don't really jump ship from something they've invested time into unless it's very clear that something else is taking over.

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by lhorie on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @03:21PM (#15855432)
Agreed. It's more like Competition == Improvement
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by brucephillips on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @06:13PM (#15857030)
No, fragmentation can be destructive.
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by lhorie on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @08:02PM (#15857685)
Can you give an example? In my experience that isn't really the case. For example, there are bazillions vdom implementations and they are only where they are now in terms of perf because of the intense competition.

This was also the case with jQuery/Sizzle and friends back in the day. There's js-joda/moment/date-fns, underscore/lodash/ramda/just, css modules/styled-component/styletron, etc etc etc.

Lack of competition tends to lead to stagnation, and since js has such a large (and growing) community, you're never really going to be at a situation where major libraries will run out of community support due to competition of equal caliber.

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by brucephillips on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @08:12PM (#15857717)
Yes.

Read Coverity's account of building static analysis tools for C: https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2010/2/69354-a-few-billion-li...

"The C language does not exist; neither does Java, C++, and C#. While a language may exist as an abstract idea, and even have a pile of paper (a standard) purporting to define it, a standard is not a compiler."

The immense fragmentation of C compilers makes it difficult to build static analyzers.

You're correct that the cost of fragmentation is seldom that there's a lack of resources around any single project. It's more that complementary products are much harder to build, because there's no standard for the product category.

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by pbreit on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @11:15PM (#15858435)
Surely you can understand the downside of diffusing attention?
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by joekrill on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @04:19PM (#15856092)
But also:

Change != !Improvement

So I'm not seeing the point here.

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by eikenberry on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @05:11PM (#15856523)
Change + Time == Improvement
Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by davewasthere on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @06:23PM (#15857120)
I do miss Borland Turbo C++ v3.0...

In my imperfect memory, it was perfect.. (I couldn't go back though...)

Re:Parcel – A fast, zero configuration web application bundler by mtve on Friday December 08, 2017 @03:10PM (#15881587)
turbo c 2.0 forever!