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Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by tptacek on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:27AM (#15845046)
This is an absurd idea. You can't "recover" stolen digital assets; when they're gone, they're gone. Meanwhile, virtually all attacks that would be handled under the rubric of this proposal will be done through pivot machines, which are also innocent people's compromised systems. Proposals like this are a license for companies like Raytheon and Leidos to break into random machines and violate everyone's privacy.
Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by mobilemidget on Monday December 04, 2017 @12:20PM (#15845522)
While I intend to agree, its not 100% correct. In case the only copy of that data resides on the server you hack back and you can delete it... you have actually unstolen the data... technically speaking..

In practice of course, you have to assume its already copied a trillion times.

Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by mannykannot on Monday December 04, 2017 @12:54PM (#15845882)
In practice, a company finding one copy might delete it and then claim that it was as if there had been no breach and so that it does not have to report it, or do anything to protect, or even warn, the people whose information was stolen. Uber took this position after merely paying the intruders to say that they had deleted the data.
Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by 3pt14159 on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:39AM (#15845160)
It's not just about recovery, it's about deterrence and reclamation of command.

If you've hacked my server and locked it's drive with ransomware and I can hack you back to retrieve the private key then I should be allowed to do so. If you're DOSing me I should be able to take out your C&C and patch the botnet with as many security fixes as possible.

Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by iaw on Monday December 04, 2017 @02:00PM (#15846459)
> If you've hacked my server ... and I can hack you back ... I should be allowed to do so.

Are you aware of any other circumstances where a private party breaking the law allows you to turn around and do the same?

Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by Yen on Monday December 04, 2017 @02:19PM (#15846592)
There's many circumstances in which one party breaking the law allows another party to _legally_ perform actions which are typically not allowed.

For example, it is illegal to kill another human being. However, nearly all jurisdictions recognize "killing in self-defense" as permissible, if unfortunate.

I can't say if the same argument applies in this situation, but I _could_ see some parallels. If a malicious party is willing to cause you financial harm for their own gain, and you can reasonably prevent this financial harm by quickly inflicting equal-or-less harm on them, perhaps that's justifiable.

Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by jessriedel on Monday December 04, 2017 @05:48PM (#15848279)
These situations exist but they are actually pretty rare. As lawyer can tell you, in the modern legal system attempts at "self-help" are generally bad for the plaintiff.
Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by TeMPOraL on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @01:00AM (#15850062)
Seems like these days, the expected strategy is to let things happen and delegate making you whole to insurance and the legal system.

I can see how this is better - especially for society in general - than taking things into your own hands, but then insurance sometimes will try to screw you (is there insurance for insurance?), and lawyers are prohibitively expensive for many.

Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by 3pt14159 on Monday December 04, 2017 @03:05PM (#15846919)
This isn't an academic argument. There are many cases where company leadership knows the people and computers behind the botnet / ransomers and has to just sit there taking a beating. Not everyone can farm this shit out to Cloudflare.
Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by tptacek on Monday December 04, 2017 @03:05PM (#15846921)
You can't deter hackers by breaking into machines.
Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by 3pt14159 on Monday December 04, 2017 @03:07PM (#15846939)
Can I deter botnets?
Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by tptacek on Monday December 04, 2017 @03:24PM (#15847119)
By hacking into things? How does that even make sense? Botnets are a numbers game.
Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by rmdundon on Monday December 04, 2017 @01:30PM (#15846224)
Yes, and while others are theoretically claiming this is not bad, attackers will change their tactics. Like groups that fire rockets from schools, they will anticipate over-arching revenge tactics and use them to their advantage.
Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by jessriedel on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:37AM (#15845146)
I don't necessarily disagree, but it does seem plausible that you could collect information about the assailants even in cases where the stolen data can't be suppressed.

Also, is it really the case that "virtually all attacks" would go through pivot machines? Certainly the sophisticated ones would, but there are plenty of script kiddies to bring down the hammer on.

Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by PeterisP on Monday December 04, 2017 @12:40PM (#15845723)
Pivot machines are the main reason for "hackback" policies.

If a script kiddie does something directly from his home computer, then the source of attack is clear and you can just subpoena his home address from his ISP and get a cop to educate his parents or whatever. However, if pivot machines are used, then you need to obtain data from every machine in the chain to trace the source of attack, and doing so by a chain of subpoenas is extremely slow, and compared to that hackback provides a practical (though usually not legal) option to do so.

Also, hackback provides a venue for stopping distributed attacks - if you're attacked from a large number of compromised machines, you need data from them (again, either by subpoena and physical retrieval or by hackback) to identify the command&control servers and possibly other victims.

Re:Hacking Back Makes a Comeback, But Is Still a Bad Idea by jessriedel on Monday December 04, 2017 @05:49PM (#15848291)
That makes sense, thanks. Do you know a place I could read more about motivations of this law which might discuss the important role of pivot machines?