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Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by Kiro on Thursday November 30, 2017 @11:50AM (#15817204)
> If you buy at price X and sell at price Y, guess what, you owe taxes on Y-X.

This is easy when you buy Bitcoin, hodl and then sell but what if you convert it to altcoins, trade altcoins for altcoins and ultimately sell some altcoin for USD? How do you even keep track of your profits?

Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by badloginagain on Thursday November 30, 2017 @12:58PM (#15817850)
In Canadian law, when you 'convert' the coin to another, it instantly triggers capital gains. If you convert the new coin, capital gains (or losses) are triggered at the time of conversion.

Its the same as if you were to pay for a new car with some Google shares and your old car, where there is no conversion to money- it's barter trade. The CRA (Canadian IRS) treats BitCoin transactions as barter trade- and you have to declare the trade in equivalent dollar values.

The happy path does not allow for easy avoidance of capital gains. I am not sure what happens if you were to purchase outside the country though- although I think the limiting factor here is the exchange you're converting on. Connecting with banks subject them to regulation and reporting.

I wonder if I buy BitCoin in a Caymen Island exchange, sell on the exchange for profit into a Caymen Island bank account, then transfer the wealth into a Canadian account, if I could avoid capital gains. This is all in OP's comment though where the institutions responsible for taxation have a wealth of domain knowledge. The tax code is complicated because people with a ton of wealth on the line have found and exploited every loophole imaginable. Nothing I can think of hasn't already been considered.

Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by Kiro on Thursday November 30, 2017 @03:40PM (#15819313)
> In Canadian law, when you 'convert' the coin to another, it instantly triggers capital gains.

That's interesting. How does it work with hard forks like Bitcoin Cash?

Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by yebyen on Thursday November 30, 2017 @03:57PM (#15819458)
That's a great question, it seems you're not "converting" the coin if you don't have to lose the original BTC.

I think you'd treat it as found money (income, but at what value? it would be really hard to say what the value is on Day 1 of the hard fork, but you could go by what the markets said it was worth... or do you use the value of the BCH from when you first "claimed" it and moved it to a BCH address? or use the value it had when you first sold it? what if you were holding BTC at the time of the fork but never claimed your BCH, do you have any way to prove that? Do you need to?)

Then once you transact it just once, it should be easy, same question as any other crypto currency; you pay capital gains on the appreciated value (the gains) after you sell. But what is your "cost basis" in that calculation?

I don't want to overpay taxes, but I think the safest thing to do would be to treat that first sale as pure income and pay the regular marginal income tax rate on the full value, because truly you'd actually have no cost basis until you had actually bought some BCH.

Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by badloginagain on Friday December 01, 2017 @01:26PM (#15825966)
I would think it works as if you were just 'given' some stock. If it appreciates from nothing to something, you'd pay capital gains on the total value of the stock- (total value - the amount you paid ($0)) = amount you get taxed on.

At least, I would believe that's the spirit of the law.

Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by KKKKkkkk1 on Thursday November 30, 2017 @12:18PM (#15817455)
I'm sure the IRS will be happy to answer your question for you. The more complex is the scenario you get yourself into, the more you open yourself to getting shaken down by the IRS.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by Kiro on Thursday November 30, 2017 @12:40PM (#15817662)
You make it sound like people do this to confuse IRS or avoid taxes. I simply like to daytrade altcoins a lot. Also, I'm not in the US but I'm interested in how this work.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by joosters on Thursday November 30, 2017 @12:52PM (#15817781)
Speak to an accountant. It's not like any of this stuff is new, people have been trading many different things for many years.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by openasocket on Thursday November 30, 2017 @01:39PM (#15818281)
I imagine it's exactly the same as how they tax currency trading.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by charlesdm on Thursday November 30, 2017 @08:03PM (#15821140)
This depends on the country.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by freeone3000 on Thursday November 30, 2017 @05:53PM (#15820399)
The IRS unironically is happy to answer this question - https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance . Every exchange is a like-goods capital gains event, just like day-trading stocks.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by matwood on Thursday November 30, 2017 @12:00PM (#15817280)
It's no different than buying the same stock at different prices, and then selling at other prices. Either the software has to keep track or you have to keep track manually.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by zeroxfe on Thursday November 30, 2017 @12:55PM (#15817821)
I have a spreadsheet to track exactly this -- it's actually quite straightforward. By regulation, you are required to compute a crypto1-to-crypto2 trade as a crypto1-to-USD followed by a USD-to-crypto2.

So if you're buying NEO with BTC, you log two trades: a SELL of BTC (to USD), and a BUY of NEO (with USD.)

It's also important to match each of your sale orders with prior buy orders (for calculating taxable profit/loss.)

Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by yebyen on Thursday November 30, 2017 @02:31PM (#15818765)
There's also https://bitcoin.tax/

I haven't used this product and I'm not vouching for it in any way, but it looks like a solid thing, and I intend to use it this year to figure out how much I owe for my trades.

It appears to have grown since I looked at it last, for $20 you get the ability to import as many transactions as you want from CoinBase, GDAX, and ~15 or so others, and you get your answer in a form that TurboTax can include in your returns.

Last time I looked, I think that it supported CoinBase but not GDAX. (So it appears to have grown since then.) I don't know how much I trust a tax service for $20, but I think I trust it further than I can throw a spreadsheet that I created and populated with trade information by hand...

Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by asciimo on Thursday November 30, 2017 @12:16PM (#15817433)
Yes, it gets complicated and takes diligence to keep accurate records. It will be interesting to hear audit stories. Fortunately, unlike conventional financial institutions, crypto exchanges often provide APIs to help customers automate these things. Here is GDAX's reporting endpoint, for example: https://docs.gdax.com/#reports.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by mancerayder on Thursday November 30, 2017 @02:40PM (#15818836)
An API for a customer? Sure, I could wrote code to automate a reporting of my exchange trades, but why couldn't the developers of the trading platform write their own automation to show me a line-by-line order history with the gains and losses itemized? It sure is something you will have with any other non-altcoin-trading platform.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by yebyen on Thursday November 30, 2017 @04:09PM (#15819555)
You could pay these guys $20 per tax year:

https://bitcoin.tax

I think that, CoinBase and GDAX are not in the business of helping you file your tax returns. They may even incur liabilities if they helped you do it wrong.

If coin trading platforms at-large are not solving this problem, then CoinBase has no need to compete on that point. There aren't any markets that try to help you file your taxes better, they are all busy solving the problems of holding cryptocurrency securely and making sure that trades are executed and accounted for reliably and in a timely fashion.

This is not the only company that suggests API use for a customer. I was somewhat bewildered when I asked Pivotal if there was any more convenient interface to Story Tasks, and told Pivotal that I was writing a client for their API because it was too onerous to make sense of Project/Story/Task workflow through their application's interface, and they responded (in brief) "that's actually exactly what we'd recommend, good luck!"

If they help you get a spreadsheet, you're going to blame them when it's too confusing for you (or your accountant) to distill into the form of a tax return correctly. What do you do with cancelled trades? How do you make sure they are discarded? (They should probably reflect on the data sheet somehow, right?) And what do you do when you trade on more than one market, or when you bring cryptocurrency from another source that already has a cost basis? Your itemized gains and losses are now incorrect, unless you provide an interface to express that cost basis into the system. And now you aren't just a market, you're an accounting platform.

This sounds more and more like a problem for bitcoin.tax to solve, and not Coinbase.

An API is the way to provide an interface to the data that is stored in your service (for customers, or anyone else.)

The data that is not inside of your service, you don't need to take responsibility for as a service provider. As an API or service provider, there is an opportunity to answer these kinds of questions insofar as you feel responsible, in the interface documentation.

Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by loader on Thursday November 30, 2017 @12:00PM (#15817282)
USD out minus USD in
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by loeg on Thursday November 30, 2017 @12:37PM (#15817636)
Intermediate trades matter. For example, if you held some of the underlying assets for less than a year, and they appreciated, you would pay income rates on that gain.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by steveplace on Thursday November 30, 2017 @12:08PM (#15817358)
I'm sure there forex market rules that account for this.

Like buying EUR/USD then going into EUR/AUD

Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by Kiro on Thursday November 30, 2017 @03:38PM (#15819296)
I'm getting downvoted a lot but I think it's an interesting question which doesn't seem to have a clear answer. See the Canada answer for example where capital gains are triggered the moment you buy altcoins.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by s73ver_ on Thursday November 30, 2017 @02:43PM (#15818860)
Same way you'd keep track of any other profits. And, in the eyes of the IRS, it is your responsibility to do so.
Re:Coinbase Ordered to Turn Over Identities of 14,355 Crypto... by Tomte on Thursday November 30, 2017 @12:47PM (#15817732)
Bookkeeping. Probably double-entry bookkeeping. Also a very old invention.