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Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by cm2012 on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @09:46PM (#15753807)
This reminds me of Feynman's story of the researcher who eliminated possible variables in rat experiments one by one, to find a surprising result (EDIT: To find that rats didn't need smell, spatial relationships, taste, or vision to find the cheese - the sound of the floor was enough) https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/02/the_rat_experi...
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by evincarofautumn on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @01:19AM (#15754736)
I suppose humans tend to underuse, or undertrain, their senses, so we fail to consider the possibility that other animals might be taking advantage of their senses in different ways.

In elementary school, I used to listen to the sounds of people’s pencils scratching on the desk, and could accurately determine what they were writing, especially if my head was near the desk and I knew what their handwriting looked like. Curves and lines, and strokes of different lengths and directions against the grain of the paper, have different frequency profiles; lifting and setting the pencil back down generates a tapping sound…that sort of thing.

People often don’t believe me when I tell them this, because they figure that human hearing just isn’t that sensitive, or that the sound of handwriting doesn’t convey that much information—but it does! You’ve simply never noticed or paid attention to it because you had no desire or reason to. Another animal might, for various reasons.

Once, my dad picked up my Magna-Doodle board as we stood outside my room, and started writing a message to me. I listened closely and said “…Clean your room?”—he had written “Cʟᴇᴀɴ Yᴏᴜʀ Rᴏᴏᴍ”—and I’ll never forget his perplexed look, first at me, then turning the board around to see if any light could be shining through. He still didn’t quite believe that I could do what I had just done in front of him!

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by agarden on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @09:14AM (#15756886)
That's fascinating. Reminds me of Daniel Kish, who is totally blind but navigates freely by echo location. It seems that is something humans -- at least blind ones -- are generally capable of if they work at it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kish

https://www.npr.org/programs/invisibilia/378577902/how-to-be...

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by k__ on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @03:19AM (#15755192)
So true.

When I learned to play guitar I was perplexed that my playing sounded bad, even when playing right. Later I started to listen better and heared stuff that wasn't encoded in the tabs, but still mattered.

Also, I could smell different foods like cereals. When I was a floor above in my room I smelled people eating even uncooked stuff, and I knew exactl what. Couldn't do this anymore today

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by evincarofautumn on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @06:34AM (#15756024)
Absolutely, I found similar things studying linguistics & phonetics. You can read phonetic transcriptions of things and get the basic sounds down, but there’s no substitute for listening carefully & imitating a native speaker, just like studying performances of pro musicians. Sounds that are often transcribed the same may be pronounced differently in different languages.

I share your strong sense of smell too. I could tell you if someone was cutting cucumbers two rooms away. Dunno how long that’ll last, although my mom still has quite a nose in her early 60s, so there’s hope.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by jaggederest on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @02:45AM (#15755060)
I agree with you. I can often hazard a reasonable guess at what people are typing or writing based on the sound, and of course, hearing the touch tone sounds of a phone makes it relatively easy.

Similarly, I will often turn off all the lights and navigate around my house/room by pure touch and sound, which is surprisingly easy given how much credence we give to sight as the paramount sense.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by agumonkey on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @06:59AM (#15756121)
Many sniffing attacks tapped into this. The sound of keys map to their shape and location quite often.
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by flycaliguy on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @01:57AM (#15754870)
That's amazing. What about chalkboard writing? I imagine that would be louder, have more protracted strokes and the patterns could become more easily absorbed through watching the board.

I should add though, that "clean your room" would be a pretty safe bet in most parent/child relationships.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by evincarofautumn on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @06:20AM (#15755973)
My point is more that it’s not amazing, just something most people wouldn’t notice or think to try. Chalkboards were possible but harder, I think because of the distance—you don’t get the frequencies that don’t carry as well across a room. I could never really do it with whiteboards because they’re much quieter. And yeah, “clean your room” was definitely a safe bet, haha, then again we rely on context all the time when listening to speech too.
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by vlehto on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @09:36AM (#15757029)
I used to hear transistors very clearly. One of the things I knew as a kid from anther room or sometimes even from outside was if someone had their TV on. The noise was so high pitched that I didn't even consider it a noise. I just knew and didn't think much about it.

One weird memory is that I remember detecting objects in silent and dark room at home if they were like 10cm from my head. Even with eyes closed. I'm not sure if it's real or kids magical thinking. But it could have been very high pitched/ambient noise echoing from surfaces.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by ajnin on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @10:33AM (#15757520)
What you heard was probably not transistors but the flyback transformer that TVs use to generate the high voltage needed by cathode ray tubes. They generally operate around 16-18kHz, in the high range of human hearing that young people can hear easily but most people lose that ability as they age.
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by JCharante on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @11:03AM (#15757798)
> One weird memory is that I remember detecting objects in silent and dark room at home if they were like 10cm from my head. Even with eyes closed. I'm not sure if it's real or kids magical thinking. But it could have been very high pitched/ambient noise echoing from surfaces.

I think that's something that is common, but I have no idea what it's called.

If you hold something (especially if it's sharp) up to someone's forehead but not close enough for it to make contact with them, they will get this weird sensation building up in their forehead. Or at least I and a lot of the people I've tried it with have. It wasn't in a completely dark room so I bet you could see the shadow through your eyelids but it's still pretty weird.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by deftturtle on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @01:35AM (#15754790)
The force is strong with you
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by agumonkey on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @06:58AM (#15756114)
Modern society has a nasty side effect to forbid us to experiment with sophisticated yet intuitive notions.

Simply learning drumming made my sense of touch, balance, and a ton of other parts of my brain extremely more acute and potent. Not dissimilar to when you grok induction on trees, all of a sudden a lot of things become clearer. Well similarly with a lot of focused attention to your senses you'll start to notice patterns and relationships that are invisible otherwise.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by passwordqq on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @05:03AM (#15755659)
I believe you. Have you considered the possibility that it wasn't your ears?
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by evincarofautumn on Saturday November 25, 2017 @07:27AM (#15775711)
Well, I did when I was 4. What are you suggesting?
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by passwordqq on Saturday November 25, 2017 @09:02AM (#15776010)
Subconscious sensing is what was on my mind. Intuition in a way... not doubting it could be pure Ear related skill, just wondering what all you have considered so far...
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by evincarofautumn on Saturday November 25, 2017 @10:19PM (#15779269)
Well, I am unusually sensitive and intuitive, but I believe it’s entirely because I inherited certain physiological and psychological traits from my parents—I am honestly not much more than a combination of the two of them.
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by gwern on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @10:30PM (#15754016)
I never did manage to trace Feynman's story back to a source, but nevertheless, also something Derek Lowe repeatedly covers for biology/chemistry on "In the Pipeline": a lot of the 'cell lines' or 'reagents' used in lab work turn out to just not be what they're supposed to be, either because they never were or they degraded into something else in storage or something. So to give a recent paper he blogged, there's something like 30k papers using "immune system cells" which are actually just HeLas; presumably the cell lines in question got contaminated or swapped somewhere along the way, but that raises the question of what any of those papers mean...

And of course there are similar issues with mice. You have all the different strains which are genetically different, but they'll also be genetically changing over time through drift & selection & mutations, so your Wistar-XXX may not be the Wistar-XXX from 50 years ago. Or mice chow - sure, the label may say it's the same but when was the last time you checked? (Think about that paper about how all sorts of lab animals, supposedly fed constant diets and under constant controlled environments, keep getting fatter over the past century. Something is changing; what? Genetics? Food composition? Micronutrients? Lab infections? Microbiomes? Measurement tools themselves?)

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by jaggederest on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @02:48AM (#15755068)
I think it would be very interesting to have labs run detailed A-A studies to investigate these kind of things.

"This kind of mouse we raised under these conditions, and we changed nothing, but they varied in these ways over time"

I often wonder whether the variables we check against are actually as independent and subject to the central limit theorem as we assume.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by gwern on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @11:00AM (#15757762)
You can run A/A studies in the sense of permutation tests or bootstraps where you shuffle individual mice which weren't treated and see how often you get a 'significant' result; this is how you can see stuff like litter or cage or room effects (ie mice housed close to each other will respond more similarly to each other, and woe betide you if you do your 'randomization' by selecting from different cages rather than selecting from different individuals!) eg "Design, power, and interpretation of studies in the standard murine model of ALS" http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.654... , Scott et al 2008, subsamples data from their 'control' mice to empirically estimate pseudo-effects and the null distribution. This is equivalent to raising two batches of mice and comparing. More interesting are multi-lab attempts at eliminating that heterogeneity and getting consistency in results, the most recent example being _C. elegans_ life extension - it turns out to be incredibly hard to harmonize labs in terms of measurements, environment, and results, and that's for well-established effects in model organisms which are about as simple as possible.

Unsurprisingly, there's a ton of heterogeneity which means it's easy to violate your statistical assumptions (i.i.d. being more important than normality here, I think) and so you get a lot of false positives. It's similar to the brain imaging issue: the assumption of spatial locality and Gaussianness is not really true and drives a lot of false-positive _p_-value inflation. There are really quite a lot of problems with animal studies, so it's not a surprise that they wipe out spectacularly when transferring to human.

I keep a list of systematic reviews & meta-analyses I run across at https://www.gwern.net/DNB-FAQ#fn95 One of the most impressive ones, I think, are sepsis treatments: ~150 sepsis treatment experiments in humans based on mouse/rat experiments, and all of them failed: "Genomic responses in mouse models poorly mimic human inflammatory diseases", Seok et al 2013 http://www.pnas.org/content/110/9/3507.full.html

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by andai on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @03:29AM (#15755241)
Do you remember the article(s) in which he talks about that, or any other keywords? I found all of "In the Pipeline", but my Google-fu ends there.

Also for the mice getting fatter over time? That's fascinating!

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by allenz on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @03:34AM (#15755264)
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by gwern on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @10:40AM (#15757604)
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by gwern on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @10:37AM (#15757568)
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2015/08/21/is-...

Well worth reading through the archives, IMO, even if you're not a chemist or biologist (I'm not). Quite aside from the methodological issues and the realities of working in the pharmacorp industry, Lowe's "Things I Won't Work With" series about dangerous chemical compounds is... a blast.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by andai on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @03:11AM (#15755162)
"They never used any of his criteria of putting the corridor on sand, or being very careful. They just went right on running the rats in the same old way, and paid no attention to the great discoveries of Mr. Young, and his papers are not referred to, because he didn't discover anything about the rats."

But what Young discovered, according to Feynman was infinitely more vital.

"In fact, he discovered all the things you have to do to discover something about rats."

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by nsnick on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @09:47PM (#15753810)
Your comment is click bait.
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by cm2012 on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @09:51PM (#15753826)
Edited
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by vorotato on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @09:51PM (#15753832)
TLDR: Long story with a moral of document your steps, and read others documentation lest you fall into the same traps they did.