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Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by jotm on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @03:24PM (#15751222)
" The U-2 can still fly higher than the Global Hawk, carry a greater payload, and its sensors have more of a slant range. The Global Hawk also lacks de-icing equipment and countermeasures against Russian SAMs. We may be entering the age of drones, but old-fashioned piloted planes can still do a thing or two."

Why not just copy the U2 and make an improved, unmanned version?

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by ProAm on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @03:51PM (#15751415)
If you are interested in how the Pentagon, Air Force and Navy decides to fund and build aircraft, I highly recommend reading this book [1]. It's about the father of the A-10, F15 (sort of), F-16 and FA-18. Fascinating read about how the armed forces will completely ignore data on flight characteristics due to politics. (it's about the life of John Boyd, not just how aircraft a chosen but its covered quite a bit in the book)

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Boyd-Fighter-Pilot-Who-Changed/dp/031...

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by wallace_f on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @05:36PM (#15752270)
Also, note the Vanguard rocket. We lost the space race due to politics. We had the people who knew how to build it--who later built the Saturn V--and after they did, were promptly kicked out.

The Soviets had childish, despicable politics of their own going on, with important rocket engineers like Korolev being accused by his colleague Glushko of treason, sending Korolev to the gulag for Glushko's professional advantage.[1]

Korolev went on to help design to Tupolev tu-2, a formidable bomber in WWII, from prison. Later he was Chief Designer of the Soviet's rocket program before dying of cancer (had he not, his plan to go to the Moon may have been realized).

Maybe the reason we see no signs of life in the universe is that all life evolves to conquer itself.

1 -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Korolev#Imprisonment

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by masklinn on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @07:08AM (#15756158)
> The Soviets had childish, despicable politics of their own going on, with important rocket engineers like Korolev being accused by his colleague Glushko of treason, sending Korolev to the gulag for Glushko's professional advantage.[1]

It went both ways, Glushko consisered Korolev to be irresponsibly cavalier and autocratic with anything outside of [Korolev's] specialities, which included Glushko's (liquid-fueld rocket engines).

> had he not, his plan to go to the Moon may have been realized

Probably not: Glushko's OKB-456 controlled the design of high-power liquid-fueld engines (which would ultimately lead to the RD-170 and its various derivatives), Korolev refused Glushko's engine design (RD-270), Glushko thus refused working with Korolev and on LOX/Kerosene engines[0].

It was Korolev who decided to go with a metric fuckton of NK-15 instead of listening to Glushko.

[0] he would ultimately design the LOX/Kerosene RD-170, but 20 years after the F1, one of the reasons for refusing to do so for the N1 was the lacking techno-industrial environment and inferior coke-prone fuels available to him in the 60s)

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by wallace_f on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @03:04PM (#15760090)
We could debate the merits of either's designs, but Korolev was the first to (1) develop an ICBM (2) put a satellite in orbkt, and (3) impact and orbit a payload on the moon
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by masklinn on Thursday November 23, 2017 @04:05AM (#15763860)
Sure, and then he failed to put a man on the moon.
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by WalterBright on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @01:12AM (#15754695)
The way I read it, there was some question that orbiting spacecraft would violate airspace, and with itchy fingers on the launch button, Eisenhower was unwilling to provoke the Soviet Union. He delayed the space program until the Soviets launched Sputnik, which settled the issue. If that's true, it was a good, pragmatic decision.
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by wallace_f on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @01:45AM (#15754823)
I have heard that as well, but to the best of my knowledge I don't believe it is accurate. Here is Wikipedia, from the Space Race page.

>The Space Race began on August 2, 1955, when the Soviet Union responded to the US announcement four days earlier of intent to launch artificial satellites for the International Geophysical Year, by declaring they would also launch a satellite "in the near future". The Soviet Union beat the US to this, with the October 4, 1957 orbiting of Sputnik 1, and later beat the US to the first human in space, Yuri Gagarin, on April 12, 1961

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by greenhouse_gas on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @01:09PM (#15758973)
>there was some question that orbiting spacecraft would violate airspace

Almost. He didn't want to avoid launching satellites, he wanted to avoid launching _military_ satellites, which is why they had to use Vanguard (which was a civilian rocket). Once Sputnik launched on an R-7, there was no more need.

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by Terr_ on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @05:28PM (#15752220)
> the armed forces will completely ignore data on flight characteristics due to politics

There's a comedy/dramatized-history called "The Pentagon Wars" starring Cary Elwes, following the development of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by ProAm on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @05:37PM (#15752276)
Ill watch this later. They talk about testing the Bradley in the book and how they pretty much fudged all the tests to get it into service even though people knew it would be a tomb for soldiers if they ever went to war in it.
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by josephcooney on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @07:25AM (#15756239)
This is hilarious.
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by Terr_ on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @04:54PM (#15761040)
I find it's applicable to some software projects as well.
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by josephcooney on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @05:06PM (#15761115)
Indeed. I was thinking exactly the same thing.
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by Uhhrrr on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @04:22PM (#15751682)
I second this book recommendation. Reading one of Boyd's more epic slide decks might be interesting to some: http://www.ausairpower.net/JRB/poc.pdf

The priority placed on tight OODA loops jibes well with the Lean Startup doctrine, I think. Of course, since there's always an aggressive competitor for resources in Boyd's field, he emphasizes messing up their OODA loop as well.

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by ajmurmann on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @06:56PM (#15752894)
There is a great book that translates Boyd's philosophy to business: https://www.amazon.com/Certain-Win-Strategy-Applied-Business...

I generally love reading about how other fields do what we call Agile. It allows you to set the principles behind the implementations.

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by Uhhrrr on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @02:25PM (#15759660)
Could you give an example of how it helped you figure out something in business?
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by WalterBright on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @01:13AM (#15754704)
That book (i.e. Boyd's story) is amazing. I had no idea what he'd done. For anyone interested in military aviation, it's a must read.
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by katastic on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @03:35PM (#15751293)
Probably because:

- The U2 uses old parts that aren't wildly/cheaply available anymore.

- The Global Hawk doesn't have a person in it. So they can send them into more dangerous situations without worrying. Which means they likely want a cheaper robot version. (Though, before RnD costs which skyrocketed, the price appeared to be only about 10mil cheaper.)

- New sensor modules have a different footprint that the shell can be designed around than a plane designed in the 70's. Also, more computer aided design into the entire thing.

- More fuel economy means more air time. (Additionally no fatigued pilot means more air time.) I know you said "remove the pilot" but the point is the entire thing can be designed for more air time, and more efficient fuel use.

Of course, often the most obvious answer is simply: Money. Tax payer dollars are "Free", and there's political power to be had in rewarding "your" defense contractor the ability to make brand new, amazing, super, bells-and-whistle aircraft. (::cough::F-35::cough::) And there's no ego boost for simply upgrading existing planes. (::cough::A-10::cough::)

Since every new program seems to be full of cost overruns I really wonder if they intentionally do that. They low-ball it, pocket the surplus "costs" as long as they can until congress gets pissed and then magically "fix" the product with a "modest" cash-influx bill from congress to finally finish it off. Because it's politically dangerous to be a congressperson that voted for this failed product that then has to be repealed. So they could, in essence, "fail" at making their product up until the point where it's just under "repeal time" and pocket all that cash.

[edit]

Here's a quote on Wikipedia that lines up partially with my comment about costs to fly:

"Secretary stated: "The Global Hawk is essential to national security; there are no alternatives to Global Hawk which provide acceptable capability at less cost; Global Hawk costs $220M less per year than the U-2 to operate on a comparable mission; the U-2 cannot simultaneously carry the same sensors as the Global Hawk; and if funding must be reduced, Global Hawk has a higher priority over other programs."[21]"

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by tonteldoos on Thursday November 23, 2017 @12:50AM (#15763107)
I'm struggling to find it now, but there's a saying attributed to some well known military figure (paraphrasing slightly):

There are two stages to any defence procurement project - too soon to tell, and too late to stop.

EDIT:

Found it. A Ernest Fitzgerald, and Fitzgerald's First Law: "There are only two phases of a program. The first is 'It's too early to tell.' The second: 'It's too late to stop.'

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by katastic on Friday November 24, 2017 @08:41PM (#15773980)
That's great! My intuition was telling me that was a big loop hole but it's great to hear a real insider / authority speak it so eloquently. Here's an article I just found about him... from 1987.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/02/23/a...

Where it says he's been the most hated man in the Air Force for two decades. So, this guy was/has basically been telling us how things are since the late 60's. And we still haven't learned a thing / integrated this into our public common sense / knowledge. (Like how >90% of people know not to mess with the inside of electronics without experience, or how most people think the government/banks/big-oil/etc is corrupt. That's community knowledge.)

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by nyolfen on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @01:21AM (#15754747)
this is a bit tangential, but my grandfather flew U-2's in the late 50s over china. a few months ago my aunt sent me a photocopy of a small essay he wrote about some of his experiences during his time flying, and particularly technical details about flying them. i transcribed it and put it on my blog here:

https://hyperstition.al/u2-james-black/

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by strictnein on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @03:36PM (#15751298)
The U-2 was developed in 18 months with COTS goods and requires a finesse to fly that I think would be tough to replicate with computers.

And Russian SAMs can easily take out a U-2, so I'm not sure what the author is trying to say there, to be honest with you.

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by jandrese on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @04:25PM (#15751709)
The U-2 is basically a F-104 with glider wings. The landing gear situation is something only crazy cold war people would approve of.

It's a testament to the engineering that what was by all rights a quick hack job has managed to stand the test of time.

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @05:54PM (#15752401)
Going to airshows with engineers who work in aerospace/defense industry is great. They point out all the cool stuff.

"just imagine the objections people would have raised to this feature, more parts, it looks funny"

"we wanted to throw a clambshell on it for shits and giggles but the powers that be decided that being able to back up a 2% grade was enough"

"both sets of wheels steer so it's one of the nicest planes to land in a near-hurricane cross wind because it can just crab sideways though the sky and keep the wheels lines up perfectly with the runway"

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by mathperson on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @05:32PM (#15752240)
"The landing gear situation is something only crazy cold war people would approve of."

oh gee whiz. this is such a great comment. I almost spilled coffee laughing on my keyboard. A+.

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by Gargoyle on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @05:09PM (#15752072)
The U-2 is so difficult to fly that it requires external sensors to land. AKA another pilot racing down the runway in a chase car radioing instructions to the pilot in the plane.

https://jalopnik.com/5537629/the-140-mph-chase-cars-of-the-u...

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by zip1234 on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @08:01AM (#15756409)
It has only two landing wheels--one in the front and one in the back (called bicycle landing gear). The chase car tells the pilot what to do to keep the plane balanced on two wheels as it goes down the runway. At the end, as it slows down, it reallly wants to tip over. Before it can, ground crews run up and put wingtip stanchions with wheels on them under the wingtips to complete the landing gear so it can taxi. Really amazing
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by cellularmitosis on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @04:09PM (#15751563)
"tough to replicate with computers"

I was under the impression that computers can fly planes which are impossible for humans to fly (e.g. the F-117, or any fighter with forward-swept wings). Since the U-2 is much closer to a "conventional" aircraft, and can be stick-flown by a human, wouldn't it be a walk in the park for a compute to fly it?

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by itsgreene on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @05:41PM (#15752302)
I'm not saying a computer can't fly the U2, but I do think it'd be more complex than a conventional aircraft. It has some pretty unique flight characteristics. From Wikipedia:

"...To maintain their operational ceiling of 70,000 feet (21,000 m), the early U-2A and U-2C models had to fly very near their never-exceed speed (VNE). The margin between that maximum speed and the stall speed at that altitude was only 10 knots (12 mph; 19 km/h). This narrow window is called the "coffin corner", because breaching either limit would likely cause airflow separation at the wings or tail. For most of the time on a typical mission the U-2 was flying less than five knots above stall speed. A stall would cause a loss of altitude, possibly leading to detection and overstress of the airframe."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by azernik on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @08:44PM (#15753508)
This actually sounds like the kind of challenge a computer can do VERY easily - much more so than a human.
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by grkvlt on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @02:14AM (#15754944)
This speed management is actually handled by an autopilot (i.e. computer) in U2s, using 'mach hold' mode.
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by strictnein on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @04:22PM (#15751683)
Flappy wings, tough to land.

Computers don't fly the F-117, they help humans fly it. The difference between the two is significant.

Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by pilsetnieks on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @06:16PM (#15752612)
Those were the 80s computers though. We've gone a long way since then.
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by JustSomeNobody on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @03:42PM (#15751334)
Because it would be designed by engineers using computers and would eventually become so over-engineered that it would be a money sink and never fly in any real missions.
Re:What Made the SR-71 Blackbird Such a Badass Plane (2015) by hudibras on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @06:00AM (#15755906)
My guess is there is a secret successor (manned or unmanned) to the SR-71 already flying right now.