Meditation is pretty simple. It's just getting better at something you practice. Specifically controlling your attention and being aware of what you're thinking about.

No magic, pretty straightforward. But an enormous amount of suffering is caused by us thinking/worrying about bad shit.

Now if you are more aware of what you're thinking and can change what you're paying attention to you can make your mind spend a lot less time worrying about shit that makes you miserable.

That's my point. I don't need mindfulness to reflect on my thoughts.

As a counter-anecdote (don't mean that in a snarky way), I am absolutely terrible at reflecting on my thoughts, feelings and physical state without some form of mindfulness.

I also notice a marked decrease in anxiety or tiredness after meditating. While of course that could be a placebo effect, almost all other things I did to deal with anxiety (including CBT) didn't really do much, despite my belief that they would.

I've talked to a number of people who didn't really see the point of meditation, only to discover that what they were already naturally doing was essentially a similar thing. Or they just didn't feel the need.

Similarly, I've met people who can smoke cigarettes for months without getting addicted, people who can remain calm in incredibly stressful situations, people who just don't understand the concept of 'boredom', etc.

Perhaps you're just one of those people who don't need it, and I'm kinda jealous of you if that's the case!

But that literally is mindfulness. It is not a magic technique... Simply reflecting on your thoughts (and/or feelings) is basically the definition of mindfulness.

PS: It is sad that this marketing/self-help-book/guru/training etc. hype around "mindfulness" distorted the original simple meaning of the word mindfulness.

It's a bit more than that. It's your thoughts now and your emotions now and your sensations now. Just generally reflecting on thoughts is vague, the point of mindfulness is not to reflect on past thoughts or future speculations.

This then gives you the power to manage them better in a few ways, including that thoughts are just thoughts and you don't have to act on them all, and actually be aware of how you're feeling and what actually caused that and how to manage that feeling if it's destructive.

Probably. My experience was that they were trying to teach common sense, wrapped up in mysticism and marketing.

It's not common sense to most people, that's precisely why it gets recommended so much. It's very easy for you to say it is, perhaps because that's all you know. For some people you can get stuck in a sort of auto pilot, moving from acting on one thought to the next, instead of realizing they're just thoughts and you can let some go.

I'm also a bit skeptical that you actually are mindful of yourself. When you actually do it and realize how it works, it's pretty amazing. I certainly didn't think "well, that's just common sense". When you actually do it, start observing your thoughts and feelings as separate from you instead of consuming them and getting caught up in them, it does bring calm and a feeling of refreshment.

The best thing I use mindfulness for is stopping a destructive cyclical worry. As an example from the past, say I'm worried about a client not having paid his bill yet, I know they're having cash flow problems and I worry I exposed myself to too much risk. What can happen is that thought can spiral and keep popping into my head, intruding into my day. It might create a cascade of thoughts, what my bank balance is like, how might I get a partial payment, is it too early to phone, should I look for another client, what will I do with the existing work, should I have asked for better payments terms, etc., etc., etc. But the worst part is, I would have that exact same chain multiple times a day. It intruded over and over, until the client would pay (predictably) late again.

But none of that helped when it was firing, it's not even that late yet. It just made me stressed and stopped me from getting what I needed to get done that day, sometimes I couldn't just place it aside.

Using mindfulness, instead of consuming that thought and worrying about it, I can just look on it as a thought.

I used to suffer from a severe temperament, so I've had to learn how to control my thoughts and emotions, and how to not give a shit, figuratively speaking. I'm very good at clearing my head and only thinking about the things I care about. When I leave work, I leave work, both physically and mentally.

Maybe that is mindfulness, I don't know. It just feels very far removed from the mysticism and mumbo-jumbo I was confronted with, which honestly just added stress, rather than mitigating it.

the mysticism and marketing isn't part of the mindfulness itself, but it is part of the self-help and new-age religion industry which attaches itself to concepts like mindfulness and meditation.

> If you just let me be and let me listen to some music without being disturbed, I'll be perfectly calm and relaxed, no mysticism needed.

Meditation is more than just relaxation. It's about a state of mind. About being in the present moment, letting go, looking inward and reflecting about oneself. I don't think you do any of those things when just relaxing while listening to music.

Also,

> I am perfectly capable of relaxing and unburdening my mind, but it just ain't happening during a normal workday with deadlines and badly defined business processes.

That means you are not perfectly capable of relaxing your mind.

> Meditation is more than just relaxation. It's about a state of mind. About being in the present moment, letting go, looking inward and reflecting about oneself. I don't think you do any of those things when just relaxing while listening to music.

Well, it's obviously that you don't know me. I am in fact in the moment and I do in fact let go and reflect when I listen to music. Or when I go for a walk or any of a multitude of other non-stressful activities that let me ignore the annoyances of daily life and other people, for a little while.

> That means you are not perfectly capable of relaxing your mind.

Like I said, it's obvious that you don't know me at all.

I don't understand why this is being downvoted. Kamac's comment comes across as patronizing.

Phrases like "state of mind", "letting go" and "looking inward" don't actually mean a whole lot. Even "meditation" can be ambiguous. Unclear terminology is IMO always a symptom of snake-oil mumbo jumbo.

Funny that the SV tech elite seems to just suck that quackery up and plays along.

It's a topic that's difficult to put into words, true. I don't agree that "letting go" or "looking inward" are meaningless. In fact, letting go has a very literal meaning. You're supposed to not think about something on purpose, and when thoughts come, you don't follow them.

Looking inward is basically not focusing on the outside world. You're not supposed to sit and stare at a chair, but focus on something that is "inward", which could be for example your presence or your breathing.

Unclear terminology sometimes comes from either not having a deep enough grasp of the topic at hand. Sometimes on the other hand, the thing you're trying to explain is just hard to put into words.

The idea of the parent is that you should be able to relax despite the "annoyances of daily life and other people" -- in other words, in any environment.

Else, baring some physiological/psychological condition, everybody can relax when in a relaxed environment...

Maybe we have different definitions of "relaxing".

Maybe not all of them are valid when discussing "Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction".

If you really get the same benefits from listening to music as somebody who does correct mindfulness meditation, then good for you.

It's most likely not true though.

> If you just let me be and let me listen to some music without being disturbed, I'll be perfectly calm and relaxed, no mysticism needed.

Do you spontaneously laugh because you're filled with such joy in this state of "relaxation"? I've done that after a body scan and just mindful breathing.

The thing with relaxation is it's easy to think you are relaxed until you experience actual deep relaxation. Search on youtube for "Yoga nidra", lie down and just follow the instructions. Simple yet profound.

Yes, some of my favorite music will give me chills down my spine, make me smile (occasionally laugh), sing along and dance.

I also get a profound sense of relaxation after a hard hour of crossfit, an urge to just lean back, take a deep breath and not give a shit about anything. When I think back afterwards, during the exercise my mind is completely clear of all worries, only the movements matter.

Different strokes for different folks. Sounds good to me :-)