News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by TAForObvReasons on Sunday November 19, 2017 @10:23PM (#15737522)
> Facebook needs to be regulated more tightly, or broken up so that no single entity controls all of its data.

What would a break-up of Facebook look like? The most famous modern example is the breakup of Bell, but the infrastructure lent itself to a natural geographical split. It's not entirely obvious if a geographic split would work for FB, and it's not entirely obvious along what planes one could split up the company.

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by krrishd on Sunday November 19, 2017 @10:28PM (#15737540)
Not necessarily related to the problems discussed by the article, but I could definitely see a logical split in terms of the non-Facebook.com platforms that Facebook has acquired (Instagram, Whatsapp, etc).

Facebook being able to eat up any and every new form of social media is worrisome in its own right. This recent article in particular discusses some pretty solid points: https://stratechery.com/2017/why-facebook-shouldnt-be-allowe...

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by GCA10 on Monday November 20, 2017 @12:58AM (#15738096)
During the U.S. government's long antitrust investigation of IBM (1969-1982) the company basically stopped making any acquisitions -- because it felt those were sure to be vetoed and to reinforce trust-busters' belief that something bad was afoot.

A long-running antitrust probe of FB or other tech giants might have a similar chilling effect on growth plans, even if the case itself doesn't result in big changes.

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by jerf on Sunday November 19, 2017 @10:45PM (#15737619)
One option would be to Just Do It, just break the company up along that sort of arbitrary line, and expect that that will push the Baby Faces [1] to be forced to communicate with federation protocols, which could also let others in to play too. One would imagine a condition of the breakup would be that any such federation protocol that was developed could not privilege the Baby Faces amoungst each other.

It isn't necessarily the best choice, but it is one choice. I'm not sure there's necessarily a much better one, either. It's a very big problem to try to wrap your head around.

[1]: I think you heard it here first, though I can't promise nobody else has come up with that. I haven't heard it before to my knowledge.

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by dwaltrip on Sunday November 19, 2017 @10:52PM (#15737646)
I think this is definitely a very interesting line of discussion for this problem.

I really like the idea of essentially forcing federation protocols to be developed. E-mail was an overwhelming success -- we should look for ways to repeat that success with other aspects.

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by em3rgent0rdr on Sunday November 19, 2017 @11:01PM (#15737681)
What about developing federated protocols by 'just doing it'.
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by s286912 on Monday November 20, 2017 @12:07AM (#15737937)
How about creating a open standard for social media,i.e, open API so that no matter what platform you use, you can connect to ppl on other platforms. This should introduce more competition in the market without creating a loophole to regulate internet.

so ppl would be able to choose platform based on variety of variables like advertisements, data collection, looks, usability.... just an idea

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by uoaei on Monday November 20, 2017 @01:34AM (#15738223)
Creating standards is the easy part, uptake is a whole other beast.
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by daveid on Monday November 20, 2017 @09:18AM (#15739984)
Mastodon uses ActivityPub and has over a million users
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by fabianhjr on Monday November 20, 2017 @01:02AM (#15738108)
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by em3rgent0rdr on Monday November 20, 2017 @07:40AM (#15739479)
cool...last I heard about MediaGoblin (a self-hosted YouTube/flicker media-sharing clone), they were trying to implement ActivityPub so that MediaGoblin instances could be federated. However, I haven't seen any updated news from them in over a year.

https://mediagoblin.org/news/tpac-2016-and-review-activitypu...

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by bencollier49 on Monday November 20, 2017 @02:14AM (#15738352)
This is actually quite an excellent idea, and one which hadn't occured to me before. Forcing federation by giving a deadline for a split (plus open API) seems like a very sensible solution - it preserves the free market and creates an opportunity for new entrants.
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by lovemenot on Monday November 20, 2017 @08:03AM (#15739591)
Today's critical problem soon becomes yesterday's yawn.

In 2003, Microsoft was ordered by EU to stop bundling OS with browser, media player and other software that seemed so important to them at the time. MS complied.

We look back now and think so what? The EU wasn't really wrong, so much as too focused on the issue-of-the-month.

Regulation of technology is necessarily painting in slow-motion with indelible paint using a broad brush.

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by jerf on Monday November 20, 2017 @08:42AM (#15739790)
I think that's a valid point on its own, but attacking Microsoft's browser was attacking their future belief about where things were going and preventing them from colonizing a space that may become popular in the future. Actually breaking up Facebook is a different proposition; we'd never be able to tell it wasn't necessary because the post-breakup world would be too different for us to ever know that.

We can't even compare to hypothetically breaking up Microsoft, because we could and probably still would have broken it up along product lines. Facebook is definitely more like Standard Oil in the sense that there isn't such a clear line to break the company up on.

Another difficult aspect of this problem is that the oil companies had physically distributed employees. Who is going to be assigned to the part of Facebook responsible for Florida? (Does Facebook even have any non-SV offices? Honest question, I have no idea.) The newly-created business to serve "the Southeast United States" without being located there is going to face some headwinds as the Baby Faces diversify. There's also some good questions around how to prevent one of them from simply winning in a way that a Michigan Baby Bell customer couldn't just decide to use Pacific Bell.

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by lovemenot on Monday November 20, 2017 @08:56AM (#15739863)
Microsoft never stopped self-believing throughout the Ballmer era. Certainly not as a result of any EU ruling.

Break-up is a misguided approach. In the case of SO, it only served to make the consequently-more-highly-valued parts more acceptable to, and the whole more deeply integrated into society.

I think technology will again be the solution to today's evil-of-the-month. Which is not to belittle these real and important issues.

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by solatic on Monday November 20, 2017 @04:57AM (#15738876)
> What would a break-up of Facebook look like?

1) Publish open APIs that enable federation between Facebook-like services 2) Split Facebook.com into three companies - Facebook the infrastructure company, Facebook the we-sell-advertisements-to-our-users-plus-sell-unprocessed-user-data company, and Facebook the we-process-user-data-to-sell-insights-useful-for-advertising company. Establish legal walls between these companies to ensure that they only communicate with each other through their APIs. 3) Enforce federation by splitting the middle "we actually host users and their walls and their data" company along state lines and international borders, so that they are more beholden to local authorities and jurisdictions.

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by hishnash on Monday November 20, 2017 @05:07AM (#15738907)
> Enforce federation by splitting the middle "we actually host users and their walls and their data" company along state lines and international borders, so that they are more beholden to local authorities and jurisdictions.

this would push up the costs massively. Every single state int he US requiring its own data centre. And what do you do if I have a friend in another state and share a post with them? who has the legal power to block that post?

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by solatic on Monday November 20, 2017 @10:57AM (#15740795)
I didn't call for the infrastructure company to be split up along state lines, just the company doing the equivalent of being the Mastodon admins for a given state's instance. So, at least in the beginning, no new data centers need to be constructed. Because the API is publicly published, new companies may spring up to sell their own implementations of the FacebookInfrastructure API, and existing infrastructure businesses (AWS, GCE, OpenShift, etc.) may decide to write their own implementations as well, which provides more competition.

Both states have the power the block - the state hosting the post may block the post from being posted on it's instance, and the state accessing the post may block the post from being seen. Again, because the API is publicly available, oppressive outcomes will probably result in competing solutions implementing the federated API and adopting more liberal administration.

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by thrden on Sunday November 19, 2017 @11:01PM (#15737677)
I could imagine a four way split as follows:

Instagram Whatsapp Facebook the site, which is required to sell its user data to third parties (think large ad services) Facebook the advertising service, which buys userdata & advertising space from Facebook the site and sells it to third parties.

The final two separations are not particularly likely in my opinion.

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by volgo on Sunday November 19, 2017 @10:38PM (#15737582)
The most relevant example would be the break up of NBC / ABC [1] in the early days of broadcasting. They were simply split into two companies that do exactly the same thing, but were now natural competitors

We could do the same with Facebook. Force them to segregate out different demographics (maybe by continent)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBC_Red_Network

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by jabretti on Sunday November 19, 2017 @10:58PM (#15737671)
So I could no longer be Facebook friends with my friends on different continents?
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by ericflo on Sunday November 19, 2017 @11:02PM (#15737687)
No, they would be forced to allow friendships to span company-wall boundaries.
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by jabretti on Sunday November 19, 2017 @11:04PM (#15737693)
So we split Facebook into multiple companies which must of necessity coordinate all their activities with each other?
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by ericflo on Sunday November 19, 2017 @11:07PM (#15737707)
Are e-mail providers "multiple companies which must of necessity coordinate all their activities with each other"? Sure, but when you put it that way it sounds nefarious. The underlying idea here, if I understand it correctly, is to force Facebook into defining protocols for what they do - something closer to e-mail than the current Facebook model.
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by uoaei on Monday November 20, 2017 @01:36AM (#15738231)
Sounds like a little creative reimagining of PubSub (hell, even RSS) would make this more than possible.
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by CaptainZapp on Monday November 20, 2017 @05:48AM (#15739060)
Works pretty well for the global phone system, doesn't it?
Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by forapurpose on Sunday November 19, 2017 @11:46PM (#15737860)
> What would a break-up of Facebook look like?

An interesting question. The network effect - the requirement that users can interact with each other - obviously complicates it. Here are a few ideas, which could also be combined in some ways:

A. Eliminate the vertical integration: Infrastructure, UI, advertising, etc. I'm not sure that resolution, by itself, would sufficiently address the problems mentioned in the article.

B. Break it up horizontally, whether geographically or some other arbitrary way, and require they all follow open standards that allow interoperability. If you think of it, that's no different than the Bell breakup - they remained interoperable; people using one post-AT&T company could call someone on another.

C. Both A & B: Different companies could create different UIs, as one example, competing to provide different kinds of user experiences to different markets - one-size-fits-all probably isn't the best solution anyway, especially for an industry selling to every subculture on the globe. The same could apply to other layers, such as advertising: B2B analytics companies would compete to sell differentiated services to advertisers. (It would be essential, IMHO, that the new social network system provide users with opt-out, complete privacy - maybe they could sell their personal info to competing buyers of it.)

The more I think about it, the better it sounds. From this perspective Facebook seems like an awkward monopoly - trying to be all things, on so many layers, to all people and businesses, profiting from monopolistic control, and preventing what seems like (at first impression) the vast innovations that competition would bring if it was opened up.

My realization is this: There's no reason one company must run the entire social network for users to benefit from network effects. Plenty of systems provide network effect benefits without central control - the entire Internet and its protocol stacks, the web, email ...

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by AVTizzle on Sunday November 19, 2017 @11:11PM (#15737729)
Been thinking about this very question since having this conversation with a friend last week.

How about making Facebook give all its data back to users? All the data, photos, metadata, social graph - all of it.

Open source the social graph and give the users their data... would that make sense? Or just create a security nightmare?

Re:We Can’t Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself by bskap on Monday November 20, 2017 @12:47AM (#15738067)