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Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by jjoonathan on Sunday November 19, 2017 @03:26PM (#15735760)
> Kind of surprising at this point

Fukushima was built when the nuclear power industry was 13 years old. Now it's 63 years old.

You are seeing the folly of youth, with consequences delayed 60 years, not a design that would be typical of new construction.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by beached_whale on Sunday November 19, 2017 @05:14PM (#15736244)
Also, from what I understand, they ignored the reports that recommended to put the backup generators on higher ground and to make the sea wall higher. Fukashima is the worst case for that design I think.
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by rurounijones on Monday November 20, 2017 @03:06AM (#15738511)
https://thebulletin.org/onagawa-japanese-nuclear-power-plant...

A great article about another plant, closer to the epicenter, owned by another company that did things right.

It breaks my heart that these guys also have to be in a shutdown state. TEPCO should be forced to hand over all undamaged nuclear plants and responsibility (minus financial) to this company.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by beached_whale on Monday November 20, 2017 @09:38AM (#15740101)
It seems like the regulators really failed. Short sighted actions and failure to fix past mistakes shouldn’t be allowed. The other sad thing is that, this is the worst case scenario for that plant and it pales in magnitude, but it is overshadowing the sorrow and lost due to the flooding and earthquake.
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by Rapzid on Sunday November 19, 2017 @04:06PM (#15735942)
Sounds like life :| Those cigarettes you smoked in your early twenties? Those beers you smashed working in IT? 63 will be interesting..
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by collectively on Sunday November 19, 2017 @09:06PM (#15737273)
You know if you stopped smoking in your early twenties they’re not likely to affect you when 63. So this is more like smoking crack in your twenties.
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by distances on Sunday November 19, 2017 @05:31PM (#15736325)
> Those beers you smashed working in IT? 63 will be interesting..

If any, I'd guess this correlation to be negative vs. the general population

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by Cthulhu_ on Monday November 20, 2017 @09:11AM (#15739935)
But but but beer is healthy! It's what people drank all the time in the middle ages etc, it was better than the water.

[/excuses]

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by jacquesm on Sunday November 19, 2017 @04:54PM (#15736164)
The trick is not to give in to peer pressure.
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by jdubs on Sunday November 19, 2017 @04:16PM (#15735980)
elaborate plz
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by bamboozled on Sunday November 19, 2017 @04:19PM (#15735989)
Nuclear scientist's weren't like "naive" teenagers though.

Sure the design could've been better; However by your logic they had 50 years to take extra safety pre-cautions and improve the structure.

In-fact, it still absolutely amazes me it was even running at the time of the disaster and built on a coast in a country notorious for Tsunamis.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by falcolas on Sunday November 19, 2017 @04:51PM (#15736143)
> improve the structure

The key question is: Who would have paid for it?

Once running, much of the structure is considered to be radioactive. Work in active radioactive areas is expensive and time consuming. Without shutting down the reactor entirely followed by an expensive cleanup, doing major structure upgrades to the reactor chambers is virtually impossible.

They also couldn't just decommission it once they realized their errors and rebuilt another one somewhere else - again the costs would have been astronomical.

People are terrible at managing (what was then) theoretical risks. If you can't convince people and companies to move out of proven high-risk earthquake areas, imagine trying to convince tax payers to pay billions to upgrade or move a functional-but-theoretically-vulnerable power station.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by WalterBright on Sunday November 19, 2017 @04:55PM (#15736171)
> Who would have paid for it?

The disaster could have been prevented by the simple expedient of elevating the backup generators, or putting them in flood-resistant bunkers. Cheap.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by inimino on Sunday November 19, 2017 @09:16PM (#15737300)
Hindsight.

The actual tradeoff would have been not just this one mitigation, but all the mitigations for all the equally probable risks. Including all the assessments to find out what those risks would have been.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by discoursism on Sunday November 19, 2017 @09:30PM (#15737347)
I don't think you can say, "hindsight," when the mitigation was actually recommended in reports that were made before the event. It's only hindsight when mitigations become obvious after a disaster.
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by krallja on Sunday November 19, 2017 @10:26PM (#15737535)
The hindsight is in which mitigation would have been effective. In a different disaster, perhaps the generators would not have been the missing piece.
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by discoursism on Sunday November 19, 2017 @10:42PM (#15737599)
It's only really possible to make a determination about whether it was hindsight or not after seeing the prominence of the recommendation. Suppose I tell someone a thousand times, "you should wear seatbelts," and once to fix their taillight. Then they are killed in an accident after being flung from a vehicle while not wearing a seatbelt. It would not be hindsight for me to say, "they probably should have worn a seatbelt." Maybe it would be if they were killed in a freak accident involving an unfixed taillight.

Unfortunately, given I have only second-hand knowledge of these reports' existence, and given they are probably not in my native tongue, I'm not really in a position to validate what the situation was vis a vis the generators. However, generators positioned on the coast, behind a low seawall, in a country that is regularly inundated by tsunamis, appears to be an entirely predictable failure mode. Not quite to the degree of not bringing a parachute on a skydive, but in that direction.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by WalterBright on Sunday November 19, 2017 @11:56PM (#15737890)
I agree, I think that the language barrier is not a problem when you see those generators sitting right behind the seawall.

It's like in New Orleans, where the emergency generators were located in the basements below sea level. There's nothing subtle about that. Sorry, but how daft can one get?

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by WalterBright on Sunday November 19, 2017 @11:53PM (#15737879)
> Hindsight

I disagree. Failure analysis does not start with "assume the seawall will never fail." It starts with "assume the seawall fails. What are the consequences?"

Given the location of those generators, it was obvious that a breach would take out CRITICAL generators, and it would have been cheap to remove that vulnerability.

Another cheap remedy would have moved the hydrogen vent pipe to vent outside, rather than INSIDE AN ENCLOSED SPACE FILLED WITH SPARKING ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by jjoonathan on Sunday November 19, 2017 @05:13PM (#15736239)
> Nuclear scientist's weren't like "naive" teenagers though.

Every industry makes severe mistakes early on and eventually irons them out with time. Are you arguing that's not the case?

> However by your logic they had 50 years to take extra safety pre-cautions and improve the structure.

Economically retrofitting an old reactor with safety mechanisms is a much more challenging task than designing new reactors correctly. The industry quickly learned how to build reactors that could handle neglect and abuse, but by then the reactors under the ground were out of their control, and were essentially ticking time-bombs. Everyone in the industry knew it. The IAEA had been complaining about ancient, unsafe reactor designs in the ring of fire for decades when Fukushima happened. So it goes.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by Alex3917 on Sunday November 19, 2017 @05:26PM (#15736304)
> Every industry makes severe mistakes early on and eventually irons them out with time. Are you arguing that's not the case?

Given that they already knew this could happen when they built it, what could you plausibly claim has been learned?

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by cocoablazing on Sunday November 19, 2017 @06:42PM (#15736626)
Moving several EDGs and support system a couple kilometers is a small task in comparison to the design, qualification, construction, and training associated with a new power reactor design.

There’s nothing very complicated about the EDG buses that supply safety-system components.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by petre on Monday November 20, 2017 @12:56AM (#15738086)
The cables from the diesel generators a couple of kilometers away could have been destroyed by the tsunami or another earthquake.
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by cocoablazing on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @08:18AM (#15756514)
This isn’t relevant to the fact that upgrading safety and safety support systems is less costly and a smaller engineering task than designing a new reactor.

Upgrades to such systems, including flex interfaces, has occurred across the US fleet in the years following Fukushima, while exactly zero new reactors have been designed and built.

Sure, there are better designs for EDG siting and support system integration. This is completely besides the point. The point is, even moving the whole safety support system kilometers away is cheaper than designing a new reactor, which I think should be a pretty uncontroversial statement to engineers familiar with the complexity of license approval for power reactors.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by andrewcchen on Sunday November 19, 2017 @04:41PM (#15736096)
Nuclear reactors need to be built next to a large body of water for cooling. So Japan didn't have a choice when they wanted to have nuclear power.
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by eeZah7Ux on Sunday November 19, 2017 @05:03PM (#15736200)
> Nuclear scientist's weren't like "naive" teenagers though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_and_radiation_accident...

Not only scientists but the whole humanity is acting like "naive teenagers" here.

Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by jjoonathan on Sunday November 19, 2017 @05:14PM (#15736250)
I'd go even further: the bigger the aggregation of people, the younger they act. The UN is basically kindergarten with fancy clothes and longer words.
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by wbl on Sunday November 19, 2017 @10:05PM (#15737456)
Every year the chemical industry kills and contaminates far more.
Re:Six Years After Fukushima, Robots Finally Find Reactors’ ... by rtkwe on Sunday November 19, 2017 @11:15PM (#15737751)
True I’d forgotten how old Fukushima was.