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Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by kuschku on Friday November 10, 2017 @07:50AM (#15669492)
Ending the "gig and sharing economy" is a good thing for society.

The sharing economy always was about exploiting workers (and externalizing costs), and this has created an additional cost for society.

For example, DHL’s drivers are "self-employed", as result, in most countries their healthcare is funded by themselves, or by society (instead of the employer), and this means you (and your company) pay more taxes, just so that Uber, DHL, Amazon and co can save money.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by dingdingdang on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:01AM (#15669549)
Exactly, I am so happy that there still a good amount of "reason" within the EU block to oppose this sort of pseudo capitalism. Which in essence is just exploitation in that it feeds a tiny amount of shareholders while letting the Gov/populace pay the bill in terms of infrastructure.

Same reason tax evasion by corporations should be ended since it not only devalues society but actively feeds on it while undermining the positive potential that a managed free market actually allows ALL players, not just the few that have gotten too big to fail.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by taway_1212 on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:11AM (#15669598)
> The sharing economy always was about exploiting workers

Define "exploit". Depending on the definition, you could argue that all economy is about exploiting workers.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by PeterisP on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:19AM (#15669647)
The society has agreed upon a certain set of rights that all employers should grant to all their workers, and a certain minimal set of "benefits" that every working person should get - in this particular case, "holiday pay, paid rest breaks and the minimum wage". Going below that level is considered exploitative.
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by matz1 on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:41AM (#15669778)
I'm in the opinion of if the government really care of it's citizen, they should do it directly, by providing low cost/free basic necessity or basic income, etc. This way their citizen is not "forced" to work with these company you deemed "exploitative"
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by tom_mellior on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:24AM (#15680283)
> This way their citizen is not "forced" to work with these company you deemed "exploitative"

Yes. When the basic income comes, it will redefine all the parameters by which we judge the qualities of jobs. But that doesn't mean that such jobs are not exploitative now, according to current standards. Your snarky quotes are unwarranted.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by matz1 on Sunday November 19, 2017 @08:15PM (#15737059)
Still, the government can help their citizens Now, by providing cheap/free basic necessity.
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by pjc50 on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:28AM (#15669700)
> you could argue that all economy is about exploiting workers

Ah, so you're familiar with Marx?

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by icebraining on Friday November 10, 2017 @09:31AM (#15670057)
Marx was far from the first.
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by Anderkent on Friday November 10, 2017 @07:55AM (#15669511)
Um, what exactly is the difference between self-employed person paying their healthcare insurance, and someone being employed and the company paying their insurance?

As long as the self-employed person doesn't pay tax on their insurance (which AFAIK they don't), it is exactly the same thing.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by pjc50 on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:31AM (#15669718)
Health insurance is irrelevant to the discussion in the UK so long as the NHS exists.

What is relevant is NI ("national insurance"), which pays for a bunch of unemployment and similar benefits: https://www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/National-insurance...

What is also relevant is driver liability insurance - normally if you take paying passengers it invalidates your insurance, so commercial drivers either need to be insured by their company or pay more for correct insurance.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by Anderkent on Friday November 10, 2017 @12:21PM (#15671348)
OK, but the idea is the same. You could have the big corporation pay the employed person X and the car insurance company Y. Or you could have the big company pay the self-employed person X+Y, and self-employed person pays the car insurance company Y.

If the big company is not willing to pay X+Y to the self-employed guy, they won't be willing to spend X+Y on an employee.

The only difference is if the big company can get better rates on the relevant goods than a self-employed guy.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by kuschku on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:15AM (#15669623)
If the self-employed person can’t afford their own insurance, but their employer doesn’t fund it for them, they often end up without insurance – and if they need to get something done anyway, society has to pick up the bill.
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by Anderkent on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:21AM (#15669658)
Self-employed people pay their NHS contributions the same way that companies pay for them. It's not a question of can/can't afford, it's a % of your earnings.

https://www.gov.uk/self-employed-national-insurance-rates

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by youngtaff on Friday November 10, 2017 @09:22AM (#15670012)
Apart from their not NHS contributions as National Insurance isn't a hypothecated tax
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by Anderkent on Friday November 10, 2017 @12:18PM (#15671333)
It's the closest there is to 'medical insurance paid by employer'. OR what do you think grandparent means when they say 'if the self-employed person can’t afford their own insurance, but their employer doesn’t fund it for them'?
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by kuschku on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:24PM (#15674461)
The gig economy isn’t just an issue in the UK – the example I had used was Germany (which I had literally mentioned in my original comment), where exactly that is happening.
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by bm1362 on Friday November 10, 2017 @01:18PM (#15671775)
The share economy allows people to use their invested capital (vehicle, home, etc) to generate income - the platforms like Airbnb and Uber provide high quality alternatives and came about due to a void in the market.

I have 3 personal anecdotes, you can ignore them if you'd like, but I'm a proponent of the sharing economy.

1. I'm from Austin, Texas where prior to Uber it was impossible to get a ride unless you were directly downtown. I've called cab companies and they no-showed, leaving me stranded in the middle of no where. There isn't enough density for public transit and when Uber and Lyft entered the market, it changed our lives. Prior to the existence of these companies, there was rampant drinking and driving. I went to school here, and every party was essentially binge drinking followed by a harrowing 30 minute drive where everyone on the roads at 2am is a drunk driver.

2. My sister is a teacher, single mother, and low income. She uses Uber on the weekends to make extra income and help support her child. For her, the flexibility of being able to drive whenever for a quick buck is key to closing the gap that Texas politics hasn't quite solved. I'm going to preempt the argument and say I agree that UBI may be the solution more generally to workers needing to rely on their employers.

3. My mother is retired and generates ~1000/month in income from social security payments. She did not plan for retirement, has no savings, and has moved in with my sister to help out. Her day job is managing Airbnb rentals in Austin and she rents out a room in their house for extra income (~700/mo). Her quality of life is much higher than it would be without Airbnb, and her ability to schedule, find and vet potential tenants without Airbnb would be pretty much nil.

I recognize these are not the same 'workers' whom are being pathologically disadvantaged by the rules of these platforms - I think they're the ideal users that product people pin on the whiteboard. I come from a low income background and only see positives, had Uber been around when I was in school I wouldn't have worked for $5.15 washing dishes in a rat infested kitchen, done tech support for wireless hotspots in trailer parks or been a valet on 6th street dealing with intoxicated people. I've had about ~20 low skilled, hourly jobs that essentially dominated my life at the time and I had very little mobility or earning power, having the opportunity to leverage my vehicle and time flexibly would've been enormous.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by PeachPlum on Friday November 10, 2017 @07:59AM (#15669536)
While I am in no way defending DHL's practices which I think are wrong for other reasons:

How does an employee having to buy their own healthcare mean I pay more tax?

How does DHL buying healthcare for employees mean I pay less tax?

How do either of those affect my socialised healthcare charges which would remain fixed even if DHL cease trading?

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by CryptoPunk on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:11AM (#15669596)
>>The sharing economy always was about exploiting workers (and externalizing costs), and this has created an additional cost for society.

That assumes better jobs would exist if these didn't. This is the Nirvana fallacy.