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Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by PaulHoule on Thursday November 09, 2017 @11:59AM (#15663935)
NSAIDS are not benign.

Digestive problems are so common with long-term use that some doctors think that they should co-prescribed with omeprazole and other agents to head them off. (Long-term omepraloze will give you B-12 deficiency if you don't supplement; it is an unusual side effect, but I can't sleep if I take omeprazole.

Cardiovascular risk from Vioxx was enough to pull the drug from the market; risk is also seen with Celebrex and other COX-2 selective NSAIDS. The risk with non-selective NSAIDS is less understood but still present.

My doc does not want me taking acetaminophen because she thinks it causes me to get elevated liver enzymes.

Like opioids there are problems when people don't "use as directed". My grandmother used to take Bufferin by the handful and one day at the dinner table we saw her throwing up blood like something out of a horror movie and she was subsequently hospitalized..

Acetaminophen overdoses can easily destroy your liver and are one of the most common forms of fatal poisonings.

The verdict is that we don't have truly 'safe and effective' medicines for pain in 2017.

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by joshgel on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:40PM (#15664256)
This study only looked at acute pain. Generally those medications are safe for acute pain.

(Unless by 'safe and effective' you mean NEVER have side effects, in which case we probably don't have any 'safe and effective' medications.)

Chronic pain is difficult to deal with and wasn't addressed in this study. Generally opiates are not recommended, but its tough to find other alternatives that are consistently safe. Opiates often end up being used and... epidemic. (... == long complicated story)

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by robbiep on Thursday November 09, 2017 @07:02PM (#15666839)
That's a bit like saying we don't have food that doesn't cause obesity. What is your definition of safe? what is your definition of effecitve? If a person turns up to the emergency department in severe pain from trauma, I can safely relieve their pain without endangering their life, that is both safe and effective. If an elderly person with arthritis of the knees is on 3x daily 1330mg Paracetamol SR for months and months, that is both safe and effective.

Paracetamol/Acetaminophen has an incredible safety profile - in people who use it responsibly and don't have liver disease.

It is, after all and as you are obviously well aware, responsible for the highest number of ED presentations for overdose, and it does kill a number of people each year. But that's a mental health issue, and you can overdose on Water (or food, as I indicate in opening paragraph), and die. For people who take it responsibly and without intent for suicide, it is incredibly safe and effective.

Same with ibuprofen - although with the proviso of Do not take for more than several days. But, the same could also be said of opiates - safe for short periods. it's chronic use that will cause problems in lots of cases (ie. add in benzos as well)

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by astura on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:43PM (#15664274)
The topic at hand is acute pain management in the ER, you seem to be talking about chronic pain management, which is another (more complicated) topic altogether.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by testvox on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:10PM (#15664033)
Cannabis works pretty well and has minimal side effects, at least compared to those you describe.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by chucky_z on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:40PM (#15664258)
Cannabis has pretty awful side-effects for me. It gives me absolutely incredible nausea, to the point where I've tried it ~10 times in varying doses, thinking my dosage was an issue, and out of those I was violently ill 4 of the times. The other 6 times were simply unenjoyable.

It doesn't just go away like alcohol either. If I drink too much and throw up, I feel better within a few minutes. For cannabis I remain high afterwards, so I've become pretty hesitant about it.

That being said, it is very likely less addictive and has far fewer side-effects for those who it helps. For that reason I am extremely positive about legalizing it and studying it further. :)

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by curun1r on Thursday November 09, 2017 @04:47PM (#15666108)
A lot of people who take cannabis for pain or anxiety take CBD [1] rather than the raw THC-containing plant. There's almost no associated high, so it sounds like you haven't tried it. The abuse of medical marijuana laws to circumvent prohibitions on recreational use has confused the issue, but people shouldn't equate the substances that get consumed recreationally with the much more processed and specific substances that get used medicinally.

Sorry to pick on you, but people should realize that if all they want to do is try cannabis for pain management, they shouldn't let a dislike for the recreational effects deter them because the two can absolutely be separated.

FWIW, I manage my pain with meditation techniques and it's the only form of pain management that I recommend whole-heartedly, so I'm not recommending anyone try CBD. But I know people who take CBD for pain and I think people should, at least, understand how cannabis is used medicinally before saying negative things about it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by baldfat on Thursday November 09, 2017 @02:53PM (#15665347)
I never touched the stuff, but I would end up having to take my friend to the ER. For some reason at different times it would cause an allergic reaction and he would act like he was in septic shock and have dementia.

Doctors and I were convinced he was not telling the truth or his stuff was laced. Ended up that he was telling the truth and was clean other than pot. Sad thing was he would keep using pot which ended up messing with his health.

I never see why people care to be sedated emotional. Worst thing about pot to me. They miss out on so much emotionally.

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by pbhjpbhj on Thursday November 09, 2017 @03:17PM (#15665523)
If you don't understand why people would avoid the full force of their emotional response to life then you apparently have had great fortune in your emotional experiences. I note you don't have to want it for yourself to understand why others would want it.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by tree_of_item on Thursday November 09, 2017 @05:10PM (#15666244)
Cannabis enhances my emotions. I'm normally pretty flat emotionally and cannabis is one of the only things that changes that. I'm not sure what you mean by sedation here.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by Balgair on Thursday November 09, 2017 @07:26PM (#15666976)
Who the hell would 'lace' weed? With what, water? Nearly every other dug costs more to lace it than just sell it de novo. THC as a drug is SUPER cheap with the various 'legal' states. Even at high-end stores, concentrates are $25/gram [0]. This reads like some ham-baked DEA post.

[0] http://www.terrapincarestation.com/stores/broadway/

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by Retric on Thursday November 09, 2017 @01:47PM (#15664781)
I am not sure you actually had just Cannabis if you had those symptoms. Was this at some legal location with a proven supply chain?

PS: Not to defend Cannabis, it can trigger Heart Attacks and is associated with a host of Lung issues. I just never heard of those symptoms.

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by chucky_z on Thursday November 09, 2017 @02:11PM (#15664987)
Yep! I tried edibles, joints, and vape pens from 3 different dispensaries in the bay area. The edibles and "free" joint I got from Airfield Supply Co. were the ones that effected me the least negatively.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by Retric on Thursday November 09, 2017 @02:27PM (#15665130)
Interesting, thanks for the heads up. Though, dosage may be the issue even being around smokers can be considered a low dose.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by Schizotypy on Thursday November 09, 2017 @04:16PM (#15665933)
This was my thought as well, dose is most likely the issue. A non tolerant patient will respond to under 10mg thc
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by evincarofautumn on Thursday November 09, 2017 @05:16PM (#15666268)
“Respond” is an understatement. 10mg THC, with no CBD, represents a typical edible from a dispensary, but as a small person with low tolerance and a fast metabolism, I’ve found that amount of THC by itself ends with me fearfully holding onto the Earth for dear life for a couple hours.

On the bright side, at dispensaries you can know precisely what you’re getting, so at least I can say “this weed will pleasantly reduce my anxiety and pain, that weed will blast me unwillingly into space” which is an option I never had before.

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by latencyloser on Thursday November 09, 2017 @02:31PM (#15665181)
Anecdotal, but I can't imagine living a normal life while regularly using though--even if regular is just a couple days a week.

It's legal where I live and the handful of times I have used during the week, I can't remember what I did the day before as well, or what my tasks for the day are. My performance at work noticeably degrades. I'm also more tired the day after, despite generally getting more sleep.

It's great for the weekend when I can just sleep it off or my only tasks are to go for a hike and get groceries though. Better than alcohol at least.

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by tasty_freeze on Thursday November 09, 2017 @08:07PM (#15667159)
I'm curious what makes it great for the weekend for you. Not being able to remember what your goals for the day are or remember what you did the day before doesn't sound great, even if it is the weekend.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by latencyloser on Friday November 10, 2017 @12:41PM (#15671504)
I suppose I was thinking in terms of the alternative being alcohol. If I were going to choose between a night out drinking, or a night out having smoked a bit, I'd go for the latter. I'd rather feel a bit hazy the next day than be sick to my stomach or have a headache--which I get even just from ~3 beers over a few hours. I could of course opt for neither, but social norms being what they are.. there's some pressure there but that's a separate issue.

That being said, I may have exaggerated the memory issues. It isn't like full blown amnesia. More so it just takes longer than usual to remember things. I'd compare it to a cache miss. Smoking clears my brain's cache the next day and I end up feeling like I am pulling short-term thoughts and memories from colder storage.

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by xbzbanna on Thursday November 09, 2017 @09:58PM (#15667596)
I'm not the person you are responding to, but I limit my cannabis use during the workweek for similar reasons. Most often my goals for the weekend are to relax and enjoy myself. Of course I'm not going to get high if I'm about to fill out paperwork to refinance my mortgage.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by vrtx0 on Thursday November 09, 2017 @01:17PM (#15664523)
It may help to note that THC and CBD are two active components which can treat different symptoms. I find CBD extraordinarily effective at treating my essential tremor. CBD and THC combined provide mild help for my pain, but THC makes me anxious and spacey. The side effects don’t quite outweigh the benefits for me, personally. But I cannot recommend CBD enough, and agree both are worth trying.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by ams6110 on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:36PM (#15664229)
It's almost certainly not as well studied over long term large populations though.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by Jill_the_Pill on Thursday November 09, 2017 @09:13PM (#15667428)
So many innovations in medicine, food, exercise, pesticides, whatever, only look better than the old stuff because they haven't been around long enough for all their flaws to be discovered.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by darpa_escapee on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:39PM (#15664249)
Perception changes with cannabis are a significant negative side-effect.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by blacksmith_tb on Thursday November 09, 2017 @01:19PM (#15664543)
True for high-THC strains, but not high-CBD / low-THC ones. And of course opioids also famously affect perception: "do not operate heavy machinery" etc.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by stefantheard on Thursday November 09, 2017 @01:31PM (#15664639)
I have heard that CBD is extremely great as a natural anti inflammatory however the strains that get recommended are so absurdly expensive. On the order of 30ml for 150$ for charlottes web for example. Is it actually worth it? How long does that 30ml bottle last for 150$?
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by gebeeson on Thursday November 09, 2017 @05:04PM (#15666216)
The bottle lasts approx 2 weeks with 'correct dosage'. And that price is the higher end product. I am familiar with the mid-range product which I used for 1.5 months (due to pain) and discontinued it because I honestly couldn't really tell the difference.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by stefantheard on Thursday November 09, 2017 @05:13PM (#15666254)
Yeah this is quite disheartening to hear. 300$ a month for something that some people can't even tell the difference with. I don't want to spend 150$ for 30ml of snake oil haha.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by tasty_freeze on Thursday November 09, 2017 @08:09PM (#15667169)
My wife has a number of health issues (chronic knee pain, low-level anxiety, CFS). She tried the same CBD oil for about a month and found it had no effect one way or the other.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by gotrecruit on Thursday November 09, 2017 @08:04PM (#15667144)
you're referring to the LP prices, i.e the "legal" stuff. you can buy far higher quality CBD strains at dispensaries, or even black market dealers, for cheaper.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by cmrdporcupine on Thursday November 09, 2017 @11:53PM (#15668023)
Cannabis makes my pain worse.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by escherplex on Friday November 10, 2017 @01:31AM (#15668339)
> My doc does not want me taking acetaminophen because she thinks it causes me to get elevated liver enzymes

An uncle and some other older physicians who are on long-term measured acetaminophen usage reported supplementing their regimen with n-acetyl cysteine (NAC) with no apparent diminution in analgesic effect. WebMD has a description of the chemical mechanism:

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-10...

As an aside it's also the primary antitoxin for the treatment of acetaminophen poisoning in veterinary medicine:

http://orrongpharmacy.com/content/s_vet/vet_poisoning.htm

So it might be useful to bring this possibility up with your personal physician.

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by jbattle on Thursday November 09, 2017 @01:01PM (#15664407)
I had some bad reactions to NSAIDs (asthma attacks & bad headaches). I was never sure if I was having an attack come on and thus took aspirin, or if the aspirin was causing it. Eventually I went to a doctor and it turns out there's a allergy-like sensitivity to these things that some people have.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAID_hypersensitivity_reactio...

NSAIDs-exacerbated respiratory disease

N.E.R.D.

I found out that (scientifically speaking) I am a NERD (or have NERD, whatever)

Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by gwbas1c on Thursday November 09, 2017 @09:23PM (#15667475)
But there's a clear difference between addictive opioids and non-addictive alternatives sold over the counter. The risk is just not comparable.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by blang on Thursday November 09, 2017 @02:15PM (#15665027)
IIRC Percocet is a combination of Oxycodone and Acetaminophen, so you will still be getting NSAIDS.
Re:As epidemic rages, ER study finds opioids no better than ... by refurb on Thursday November 09, 2017 @02:19PM (#15665055)
Acetaminophen is not anti-inflammatory this is not an NSAID.