News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by acjohnson55 on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:32PM (#15620402)
Of course, it would be cool if Bitcoin didn't require throwaway computation. Then we could use this computation for something that's actually valuable, like protein folding, or something, and still make use of the waste heat.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by ArchReaper on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:39PM (#15620454)
>it would be cool if Bitcoin didn't require throwaway computation

Sure, but that's a technology that does not exist. If you can figure out how to create a blockchain-like concept, where the 'proof of work' actually contributes to humanity, you have invented the next big thing.

Edit: Reading the comments below me, it looks like this is a space that is being actively explored. Exciting!

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by azeirah on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:46PM (#15620503)
There are some coins that do something like this, primecoin's proof of work has to do with primes.

> The innovative prime proof-of-work in Primecoin not only provides security and minting to the network, but also generates a special form of prime number chains of interest to mathematical research. Thus primecoin network is energy-multiuse, compared to bitcoin.

This is of course very basic, but still, it's interesting.

http://primecoin.io/

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by pfraze on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:38PM (#15620888)
You can have blockchains without decentralized consensus. It's how Certificate Transparency works.

You have the contract host record all operations and output on a ledger, and then ship that ledger/log out to monitors. This improves the auditability of the system, and enforces the backend logic as a contract. Deviations from the code are detectable by replay, and then provable. Flag the host and readjust your trust.

You can also find ways to reduce the cost of switching between traditional hosting models, such as using data-sharing networks (Dat, IPFS) to quickly "hydrate" a new host, and good ole configurable endpoints to make the switch.

It's the opposite of a trustless network; it's a trust network built on accountability. You watch hosts for bad behavior (such as the violation of the backend contract) and reconfigure trust around violations. No decentralized operation, but much less wasteful than PoW.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by eternalban on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:01PM (#15621066)
> You can have blockchains without decentralized consensus.

That's pretty much something like Git.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by pfraze on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:04PM (#15621089)
Yeah, though we don't use Git to monitor active systems.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by scott_karana on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:22PM (#15621231)
Folding and SETI @home existed for more than a decade. I've never understood why nobody mentions them for Proof of work. Maybe the work's not verifiable?

http://folding.stanford.edu

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by simias on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:39PM (#15621348)
Yeah I believe that's the problem, the work needs to be trivially verifiable. You also need to be able to modulate the difficulty easily so that the blockrate remains constant as more people enter the "contest". And of course the work itself must somehow reference the transaction data otherwise you could use the same proof of work for two different blocks.

Seems difficult to find an actually useful mathematical problems that fits all these prerequisites.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by brosirmandude on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:34PM (#15620863)
This is actually already a thing., check out Gridcoin. Been around for a couple years but never really took off. I still think it's a really good idea, but might need better marketing.

http://www.gridcoin.us/

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by uwu on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:07PM (#15620664)
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by ArchReaper on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:45PM (#15620955)
From their site:

>Curecoin puts ASICs to work at what they are good at–securing a blockchain, while it puts GPUs and CPUs to work with work items that can only be done on them–protein folding.

Do you (or anyone) have more information in how this works? Does this reward you directly for doing the folding (as opposed to validating)? How does that work? That looks like a very interesting concept, and if it's technologically sound then I'd love to see it gain popularity.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by XR0CSWV3h3kZWg on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:45PM (#15623013)
As long as your problem can be defined entirely by data from the previous block and there is a nonce you can vary you can adopt proof of work to just about anything.

The problem is that for most problems you don't want to explore the space of potential problems randomly, you want to select ones that people care about. If you allow an actor to dictate what problem to work on then you can have that actor pick a problem they have already solved and will be able to roll back tx arbitrarily once they have control.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by dqpb on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:32PM (#15622017)
where the 'proof of work' actually contributes to humanity

Wouldn't a cheaper throttle be easier?

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by simonjgreen on Sunday November 05, 2017 @04:47AM (#15628822)
Grid coin monetises boinc contributions
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by kemitche on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:40PM (#15620461)
Isn't that the premise of Ethereum?
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by RealityVoid on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:47PM (#15620511)
It's not. It still uses proof of work, for now at least. They say they want to implement proof of stake. THAT will be interesting, but I want to see if they ever get there.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by corysama on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:32PM (#15620846)
There was an interesting article "Nothing is cheaper than proof of work"[1] that talked about both proof-of-stake and using miners to heat your home. Basically, if you decide you are willing to pay $9 to make $10 back, then discover you are additionally saving $1 off your heating bill, you will logically be willing to pay up to $10 to make $10 back + $1 in savings.

But, the main point of the article was that "proof of stake" is basically selling liquidity (exactly like bonds) and, to get the same job done, the cost of that liquidity won't end up being any cheaper than the cost of the electricity it's replacing.

The Ethereum Foundation has published a response [2].

[1] http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/

[2] https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-FAQ#doe...

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by rhaps0dy on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:15PM (#15623312)
Using electricity creates negative externalities in the form of physical resource consumption, though.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by gruez on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:19PM (#15620755)
>They say they want to implement proof of stake. THAT will be interesting

what's so interesting about that? there are plenty of proof of stake coins already.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by ojr on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:49PM (#15620982)
20 billion dollar more in market cap makes it a little bit more interesting than other coins that dont have that market cap, there's more at stake
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by glenneroo on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:20PM (#15622883)
Unfortunately not, but it's one of the premises of HashGraph (https://hashgraph.com).
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by virtuexru on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:35PM (#15620431)
That "throwaway" computation ensures the integrity & correctness of the blockchain, all while confirming new transactions.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by scott_karana on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:24PM (#15621257)
I suspect you're getting downvoted (though not by me) because the hashing computation doesn't directly provide that.

Other proof of work algorithms could concurrently secure the block chain and also provide direct, external benefit. There are some suggestions elsewhere in this thread. :)

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by asciimo on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:31PM (#15621305)
Sorry for this metacomment, but how can you tell if someone is getting downvoted?
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by simias on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:40PM (#15621362)
I assume the comment used to appear grayed, which indicates a negative score.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by scott_karana on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:51PM (#15621441)
In this case, since it wasn't grey any longer, I just took PKop's word for it :)
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by PKop on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:49PM (#15620528)
Funny you're getting down-voted. This is quite literally a true statement.

Then the only point of contention is whether the benefit of this secure network existing and what it gives the world outweighs the cost of the resources consumed.

I believe it is, by a large amount.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by sliverstorm on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:18PM (#15622266)
No, that's not the only one. High on the list is, surely there must be some way to accomplish the same quality of network without requiring so much throwaway work.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by eternalban on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:03PM (#15621079)
It's not "Funny". This forum's intellectual integrity is declining. OP, of course, made a statement of fact.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by s73ver_ on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:41PM (#15621364)
They made a statement of fact, but it wasn't really relevant to the comment it was replying to.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by clarkmoody on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:43PM (#15620926)
> Then we could use this computation for something that's actually valuable

So Bitcoin is not valuable?

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by GrinningFool on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:48PM (#15620975)
Perhaps "meaningful" would be a better fit.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by acjohnson55 on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:37PM (#15622358)
I mean deriving value the actual results of the computation, not the side-effect that it can serve as a competition. Hypothetically, we could derive value from both of those things.