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Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by tlb on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:24PM (#15615656)
In the steam days, it was a major operation to adjust the output of an engine. Valve linkages had immediate effect on the output, but you also had to adjust the boiler heat input to keep the temperature within limits. Far enough back, there were men shoveling coal into the boilers who had to be told to slow down or speed up.

Do you think it's mainly bureaucratic inertia that keeps it separate? Or is there something more complicated about controlling engine power than I imagine?

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by toomanybeersies on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:13PM (#15616441)
On a nuclear powered ship, yes, since you still essentially have a steam engine, the engine telegraph (throttle) isn't actually linked directly to the engine.

On a modern diesel or gas turbine ship, no there's not. Obviously there are limits to what the engine can do still.

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by gaius on Sunday November 05, 2017 @05:58AM (#15628933)
On a nuclear powered ship, yes, since you still essentially have a steam engine

Right, this is why when BAe lied to the UK claiming that the QE class carriers could easily be converted to cats'n'traps every engineer in the country said WTF? Because with no nuke where do you get either the steam for the catapults or the surplus electrical power for EMALS when you want to steam directly into the wind for deck operations? But our idiot PPE-educated politicians lapped it up and signed cheques for billions anyway...

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by misnome on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:17AM (#15617735)
The nuclear part isn’t just used to generate electricity for the motors?
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by bzbarsky on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:54AM (#15620114)
If https://www.defensetech.org/2013/09/27/ohio-class-subs-to-sh... is correct, then at least the Ohio class submarine drives the motor directly off the turbines, but the thing being designed to replace it will use electric motors. And actually, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia-class_submarine#Elect... talks about the same, but with some comments about the few submarine types that do this so far. And following the link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_electric_propulsion gives us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_electric_propulsion...

Looks like some of the most modern or in-design classes are using electric drive, but most things out there are using direct mechanical linkage to the turbines to drive the propeller.

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by zwily on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:41AM (#15618336)
The heat from the nuclear reaction in a nuclear power plant is typically just used to boil water, which turns turbines, which creates the electricity.
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by LeifCarrotson on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:49AM (#15618736)
Does this electricity charge a battery pack, which then is used to drive the electric motors which turn the screws? This would imply that the heat generation and turbine spin-up time merely need to respond before the batteries are discharged, potentially allowing response times of minutes or hours. It would give Tesla-like instant throttle response, where the operator would move the lever and the sub would jump forward.

Or does it directly power the engines? This would mean that your entire control loop would include the latency of the steam generation process. Move the lever, wait for the water to get hot, wait for the turbines to spin up, and then the screws would start to turn faster. Like the throttle response in an ancient diesel truck.

Given that the original diesel submarines used giant battery arrays to power the electric motors while the engines were off, and that the former gives much better control response, I'd assume that there are still large batteries in the loop. This paper [2] supports that assertion:

> The nominal cell voltage is 2.0 V. [1] The PDX-57 cell designed for Ohio-class submarines weights 2,100 pounds with a capacity of more than 10,000 Amp-hours and stored energy of 2.6 MWh. [1] The ASB-49 cell designed for the Los Angeles-class submarine weights 1,300 pounds with a capacity of 7,200 Amp-hours and stored energy of 1.8 MWh. [1] The LLL-69 type cell weights 1,500 pounds with a capacity of 8,100 Amp- hours and stored energy of 2.0 MHh. [1]

A couple megawatthours is plenty to run the screws while the steam loop and nuclear reactor respond.

Therefore, toomanybeersies comment:

> On a nuclear powered ship, yes, since you still essentially have a steam engine, the engine telegraph (throttle) isn't actually linked directly to the engine.

is technically correct but actually irrelevant. The nuclear reactor telegraph does control the steam turbine and eventually the battery charge, rather than the engine. But somewhere there's an electric motor controller which responds instantly.

[1] http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1177196/?reload=true&tp=... [2] http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2013/ph241/ditiangkin1/

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by bzbarsky on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:59AM (#15620144)
It looks like warships with electric drive are _just_ starting to go into production. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_electric_propulsion... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia-class_submarine#Elect... for some background.

Both the Ohio and Los Angeles class submarines use mechanical linkage propulsion, not electric, if I understand correctly.

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by krschultz on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:42PM (#15620919)
Your entire comment is wrong, and toomanybeersies is right.

Source: https://www.defensetech.org/2013/09/27/ohio-class-subs-to-sh...

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by Marazan on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:31AM (#15617793)
The nuclear power plant is heating water to generate steam.
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by pbhjpbhj on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:39AM (#15618323)
Which presumably drives a turbine to make electric which can run motors, charge batteries, run scrubbers, run heaters, etc., presumably.

They're not direct driving the screw with steam power from the reactor heat-exchange, surely.

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by avar on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:28AM (#15618601)
It's hard to find anything like a schematic of a Nimitz-class carrier for obvious reasons, but as far as I can tell yes, it's all directly steam powered. The reactor boils (sea)water, which is used to power 4 steam turbines[1][2][3], those turbines drive the propellers.

You've probably seen aircraft carrier decks covered in smoke. This is because the Nimitz's catapult system is directly steam powered, service steam is widely used on the class. I can't find a citation for this now (this is from memory) but I saw some documentary on it once where it was mentioned in passing that even the washing machines on the ship were steam powered. There's service steam everywhere on the Nimitz.

Having steam power everywhere introduces a lot of complexities, which is why the Navy's moving away from it with their new carrier class[4]. The Gerald R. Ford-class does away with service steam in favor of more powerful electric generators. There'll be no service steam, just steam to drive the electric turbines.

1. http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/FACTS.html

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier#...

3. https://www.marinelink.com/news/dresserrand-propulsion302604

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R._Ford-class_aircraft_...

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by digi_owl on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:45PM (#15620959)
I love the way they did the electromagnetic catapult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_Aircraft_Launc...

Basically they spin up flywheels that then dump their kinetic energy back into electric power as the catapult is released.

And it allows them to finely adjust the speed of the catapult depending on the kind of aircraft they are launching.

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by autokad on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:51AM (#15619202)
some nuclear submarines are not steam powered directly, they use electric engines.
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by bzbarsky on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:01PM (#15620171)
Very few, if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_electric_propulsion... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia-class_submarine#Elect... are to be believed. The latter claims that as of 2013 there is exactly one nuclear submarine class (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triomphant-class_submarine to be exact) that uses electric engines.
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by jasonwatkinspdx on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:48PM (#15622402)
> They're not direct driving the screw with steam power from the reactor heat-exchange, surely.

Yes, they are, for the simple reason that it's more efficient. This is beginning to give way to a series electrical design, but that's for reasons of increased stealth and other concerns, at the cost of overall thermodynamic efficiency.

On all existing nuclear carriers steam is used for the catapults (and this is much more demanding than many people are aware of). The Ford class is developing electromagnetic catapults, which are also proving to be demanding to perfect.

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by chrisseaton on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:41PM (#15615763)
> Valve linkages had immediate effect on the output, but you also had to adjust the boiler heat input to keep the temperature within limits.

Can you not vent some of the steam, so the same volume of steam is being produced and the temperature the same but only some of it goes to the drive?

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by okabat on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:41PM (#15616082)
I think their point is that when changing engine output is labor-intensive, it made perfect sense to have an officer giving orders and somebody else implementing them. Why the command structure hasn't shifted to accommodate modern technology is an interesting question
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by diggernet on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:09AM (#15616835)
It's not labor-intensive, it's attention-intensive. You want the person managing the speed to be focused on that. You want the person managing the heading to be focused on that. And you definitely don't want the officer to be distracted by maintaining course and speed when they need to be keeping track of what's going on around the ship.
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by PeterisP on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:48AM (#15617614)
You want the person managing the speed to be focused on that if managing speed is still inherently and unavoidably attention-intensive - if modern control technology is able to automagically maintain speed at x knots, adjusting all the various engine control parameters to implement that, then an extra person in the loop only means an extra chance for mistakes or delays.
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by cocoablazing on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:55AM (#15618773)
If the military learned a lesson from exploding a reactor with an automatic control system, you might never know - it's not required to be reported to the public.
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by josefx on Saturday November 04, 2017 @05:04AM (#15624305)
If an automatic control system can blow up a reactor so can the manual one. You have a problematic design issue in both cases. You can also still assign someone to keep an eye on the reactor in case things go bad an have that person pull an emergency stop or warn the guy in charge. There is no reason to relay every little speed change through several people.
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by a_t48 on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:11PM (#15615956)
This would mean wasting fuel, no?
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by chrisseaton on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:28PM (#15616022)
What's that got to do with anything?

The comment was about the ability to vary power at all, not doing it efficiently.

Are you going to choose to crash into something because it's wasting fuel to vent part of the steam?

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by femto on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:00PM (#15616379)
A basic of driving a steam engine is not to waste steam, since steam represents fuel, which in turn represents money. As you say, not having an accident is more important than wasting a bit of fuel (hence safety valves on steam boilers), but in everyday operation wasting fuel is a cardinal sin and something that is to be avoided. At one point I was involved in steam rail preservation, and the old-timers used to mourn the loss of engine driving/firing skills whenever engines sat at the platform with the safety valves blowing.

The ship command structure was a form of information hiding, whereby the commander only worried about the speed, whilst the engineer worried about how to efficiently deliver the requested speed.

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by masklinn on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:11AM (#15617712)
> Are you going to choose to crash into something because it's wasting fuel to vent part of the steam?

Under emergency you will vent, but under normal operations where you just want to slow down you care very much about efficiency.

Not just for monetary reasons either (though that's a factor) but because the lumps of coal you're not burning now could save your ass in bad weather and make you reach safety instead of being stranded in the middle of the ocean.

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by killjoywashere on Friday November 03, 2017 @10:52AM (#15619604)
At sea, efficiency gets you back to land.
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by schlock509 on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:47AM (#15616771)
I think if the same volume of steam is being produced then it's going to cause problems regardless
Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by jasonwatkinspdx on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:43PM (#15622383)
> Or is there something more complicated about controlling engine power than I imagine?

Large marine diesels such as used by container ships do need to follow a procedure to change out of the cruise rpm. I don't know how much that can be skipped/abbreviated in case of an impending collision, but I do know that generally it takes more than just someone on the bridge changing a control setting.

Re:USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion by cocoablazing on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:25AM (#15618583)
Yes, steam demand controls the power response of a nuclear reactor.