News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by TylerE on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:00PM (#15614688)
That sounds very un-clever (edit: I mean by Microsoft). Why couldn't malware do the exact same thing?
Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by tialaramex on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:46PM (#15615030)
It absolutely could. The alternative is that Microsoft has complete control over what software can run on any Windows PC. It turns out that people who want this ("Man. I wish I could only run programs chosen by the monopoly supplier") already have an iPad so this basically just creates a backlash.

I know what you're thinking "Oh, well there could be an exception for when you need it, you'd just use admin to authorize it or something" and that's exactly what this is.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by fencepost on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:52PM (#15616123)
> The alternative is that Microsoft has complete control over what software can run on any Windows PC.

That would be the relatively little known (and new) Windows 10 S, where only apps from the Windows Store can be installed or run. Designed for security (?) and to compete with Chromebooks.

See also Windows RT

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by m-p-3 on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:56PM (#15616368)
I can see some scenarios where this would be desirable. Like my grandparents, who basically just wants to browse Facebook, etc.

Since they have a Chromebox, I do not have any calls regarding viruses or their computer being slow, etc.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by Spivak on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:34PM (#15616504)
But the desirability is proportional to the level of moderation of the store and Microsoft's is complete shit: it's full of not-quite-malware and not-quite-scams.
Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by ubernostrum on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:07AM (#15617438)
It turns out that people who want this ("Man. I wish I could only run programs chosen by the monopoly supplier")

Or people don't know/care. Or weighed the comparative downsides of a controlled app platform versus the wild west, and decided the controlled platform is less of a downside for what they want to do. Or lots of options, really.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by bubblethink on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:15AM (#15618527)
>The alternative is that Microsoft has complete control over what software can run on any Windows PC

The alternative is to add gpg keys of the software vendors that you trust. i.e., Every linux distro.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by zeusk on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:06PM (#15615558)
Because:

a) Adding a root CA to the cert store requires UAC elevation prompt.

b) The certificates are more useful in verifying if a given driver was issued by the manufacturer it says it was issued from.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by TylerE on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:09PM (#15615570)
Rebuttal: Users just blindly click ok so UAC doesn't actually do anything useful.
Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by iancarroll on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:05PM (#15615914)
A better rebuttal is that UAC is not a security boundary and bypassing it is trivial.
Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by dingo_bat on Friday November 03, 2017 @06:03AM (#15617929)
Has that been done? I have been thinking it's pretty secure!
Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by iancarroll on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:44AM (#15618700)
Yes. UAC was not really designed as a security boundary in the first place.

Here are some public exploits for it: https://github.com/hfiref0x/UACME

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by Dylan16807 on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:29AM (#15619896)
It's pretty bad. Even if you put it on max, disabling automatic elevation, there are still flaws that microsoft doens't bother to fix.
Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by zeusk on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:41PM (#15616522)
Well, the same is true of any osx pre high sierra. A malware can disguise as installer utility and it can make modifications to system or install kexts after user okays it (keychain saves the password).

Linux makes you type in the password manually every time for elevation but that will just make the average consumer remove or use unsafe passwords for their accounts.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by TylerE on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:03AM (#15616605)
There are plenty of ways of NOT having to type the password on linux that are functionally equivalent to keychain (e.g. sudo in some configurations)
Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by zeusk on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:21AM (#15616876)
Sure you can customize /etc/sudoers to your heart's content but that's not the point here. (btw, you can use group policy to enforce password at UAC prompt and limit users from system wide changes to Windows).

The point is about a secure & safe way for a common person to authorize an application that wants to make changes to the system and as the defaults stand, sudo prompting for password at every elevation attempt is worse off in my opinion.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by shakna on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:01AM (#15617408)
Doesn't sudo have a default time setting? Only once every ten minutes per process does it elevate?

> The point is about a secure & safe way for a common person to authorize an application

I'm not sure that's even possible. The common person doesn't tend to fear putting their credit card info into a random online form.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by toyg on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:51PM (#15615076)
Driver signing is not really about malware, but rather about Microsoft trying to enforce a bit of quality control on the shit-show that was driver development by noname hardware manufacturers. If a driver is signed I can look up the owner and bash him for his crap quality code. Similarly, any manufacturer caught doing this sort of trick would be blacklisted.
Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by weddpros on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:20PM (#15614820)
Just imagine what the developer thought when his boss said "we don't want to buy an actual certificate, find something that works".

And now this developer is learning on HN he should remove that line in his resumé.

Or maybe he thought it was a clever idea... Let's call it a learning experience.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by varenc on Thursday November 02, 2017 @07:37PM (#15615376)
This seems a better and more secure solution than buying an actual certificate.

If they had a single certificate and used that across devices then the private key could be compromised and used to authenticate malware or pull off a man in the middle attack on an HTTPS site since your system now trusts this new CA. By generating the private key locally and throwing it away, you can be relatively confident that no one has the private key to this new root CA.

What's silly in the first place is that something not trusted to install unsigned drivers still has the perms to install a new root CA but given that constraint, this is a better solution than what Savitech did.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by weddpros on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:07PM (#15615563)
I wouldn't trust anything closed source to forget that private key.

I can't see how buying an actual cert could be more risky than installing a new root CA. The goal of signing is to ensure origin and anti-tampering: two fails in this case. So now you may have a tampered with driver that doesn't remove the private key and uses the new CA to inspect your TLS traffic, and you wouldn't know.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by AstralStorm on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:05PM (#15620642)
Can you trust random procedures of company xyz to secure their private key store?

I don't. Not even Microsoft themselves. There were embarrassing slips.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by ChristianBundy on Thursday November 02, 2017 @07:43PM (#15615415)
> If they had an actual root CA with a private key, that private key could be compromised and used to authenticate malware or pull of a man in the middle attack on an HTTPS site.

If they had an actual root CA with a private key, they'd sign it locally (on the company machine). In no scenario would the company's private key be given to a customer (unless we're talking about Adobe).

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by varenc on Thursday November 02, 2017 @07:47PM (#15615438)
Yes, that's the ideal case...

But what do you want to do more?

1) Trust some company to keep a very important private key secure for a long time? (with attackers knowing it's a single high-value target)

2) Or be confident that the private key was used once and destroyed forever? Even if the private key generated on your device could be recovered it would only be good for an attack against you making it a lower priority to attackers.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by dec0dedab0de on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:20PM (#15615628)
Or be confident that the private key was used once and destroyed forever? Even if the private key generated on your device could be recovered it would only be good for an attack against you making it a lower priority to attackers.

Doing it that way completely undermines the reason for having a cert in the first place. You might as well not have one at all.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by usrusr on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:11PM (#15615954)
The difference is that with the on the fly cert, you blindly trust one piece of code, at one point in time, and when it did not lie to you then you will be safe from it later. A conventional cert owner on the other hand could theoretically turn on you any time (e.g. when ownership multiplies into pwnership) once "automatic trust" for the next binary is established.

I'd still prefer the latter, given reasonable standards in terms of key handling, but the one-time trust is not completely without merit. It would certainly be more reasonable though to just allow one-time blind trust without forcing the installer to create a certificate that may or may not be as private as advertised.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by ComodoHacker on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:03AM (#15617677)
There's a difference. With auto-generated root certs you can't just steal one private key, sign your malware with it and push it to all users of the original software.
Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by voltagex_ on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:37PM (#15614955)
It's a driver associated with some open source Android stuff. Driver signing certificate are $100+/year.
Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by lultimouomo on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:34AM (#15617075)
I don't think this was done to skim in money, but to let you install a driver that binds only with your mobile USB ID.

Alternatively they would need to ship hundreds of different drivers or a single driver that binds to hundreds of different device IDS. Not nice.

Re:Savitech USB audio drivers install a new root CA certificate by slededit on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:02PM (#15614712)
Presumably you need to grant the installer admin privileges for it to work