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Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by jdavis703 on Thursday November 02, 2017 @04:20PM (#15613899)
What would be a better solution for ensuring the video's producers continue to receive funding to make more videos?
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by axedwool on Thursday November 02, 2017 @07:32PM (#15615343)
I don't want people who produce videos like that to continue to make videos. I want them to go out of business.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by macdiddy on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:54PM (#15616356)
That's not really fair. Those people are simply using the current rules to their advantage to help them make a living.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by TeMPOraL on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:34AM (#15617554)
That is entirely fair. You are not entitled to a business model, especially not to a business model that is malicious.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by zdkl on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:35AM (#15616727)
I don't like this stereotyped answer but isn't this what "move fast and break things" was supposed to be about?

Why did we become afraid to diverge from the norm and trends on the internet? From a consumer standpoint, uniformisation makes content parsing easier in the sense that you know what to expect and how to compare content more readily but why do people not go on a limb and take more "risk" in differentiating content? Why don't we have a glorious mess of different formats and the opportunity to choose medium?

At some point I believe A/B testing and optimising for reachability put a negative pressure on variation from the norm and platform standards, and that's a tragedy of the commons.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by Veen on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:21AM (#15617495)
> Why did we become afraid to diverge from the norm and trends on the internet?

Because “we” wanted to get rich, or at least make a living.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by zdkl on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:23AM (#15617759)
Well we can't all make a living as authors or librarians. Ads supported this delusion for a while but historically most people trying to live from their creativity/written work (or modernly, video work) have actually starved to death.

If you're in it to get rich or to mke a living exclusively from your art, you better be good enough rather than expecting a sense of duty from your public to subsidise your effort.

Not to say one shouldn't be incentivised to be creative, but just that I do not agree that wanting to make a living makes ads or extracting value from your public by all means ok.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by Veen on Friday November 03, 2017 @06:28AM (#15618025)
> makes ads or extracting value from your public by all means ok

Certainly not by all means. But it isn't unreasonable to expect that if people gain value from something you create, some of that value accrues to you as the creator.

I make most of my living as a freelance writer, but I just charge other people to write the content they can't or won't.

There is also another problem here: the market doesn't typically incentivize the sort of content we'd like to see created. Long form investigative journalism is hugely expensive, and in a world awash with free content, few people think they should have to pay for it. But do we really want to see that sort of content go away?

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by zdkl on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:34AM (#15618300)
The use-case you describe as freelance writer or proper investigative journalism is the one place I expect targeted (and author curated) advertising to be able to pay the bills in the ideal market-fit theory. If as an author and "provider of opinions" you can't convince commercial actors in your niche to funnel value to you, I'd argue you shouldn't be writing non-fiction commercialy.

And in this not strictly commercial writing context, I believe client side mining may be a good form of low-commitment compensation.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by na85 on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:01PM (#15614703)
I think the point is we don't want them to continue making videos.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by chesimov on Thursday November 02, 2017 @05:05PM (#15614293)
Not to be facetious, but I'd really prefer there to be fewer drawn-out videos of the nature described in the posts above. The issue of payment for content is of course real though.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by fiddlerwoaroof on Thursday November 02, 2017 @04:43PM (#15614122)
Mining cryptocurrencies while the current tab is in the foreground. (supposing a suitable GPU/ASIC-proof cryptocurrency is available)
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by na85 on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:02PM (#15614709)
What is with the huge percentage of users here that think this sort of thing is okay?
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by mynewtb on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:00AM (#15617666)
Because the bitcoin bubble has expanded so much and tech people like to think they should all be millionaires now. Greed.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by fiddlerwoaroof on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:34PM (#15615715)
I think it’s ok because I think it’s unreasonable to expect site owners to provide content free of charge: people hate paywalls and ads/tracking because they prevent access to content, add unwanted content and/or infringe on the user’s privacy. An automatic cryptocurrency micropayment system (like the Brave browser’s BAT system, if I understand correctly) could be designed to address some or all of these problems without making it impossible to monetize your content.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by na85 on Friday November 03, 2017 @06:24AM (#15618007)
So in other words, site owners are entitled to an income?

Pish posh. Not everything on the web is worth paying for. The content that is worth money will draw subscribers, and content producers are going to just have to live up to the fact that not all of what they produce is worth paying for.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by jthewriter on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:57AM (#15620132)
Amen. If people aren't willing to pay for your content, then it's literally not worth paying for. You're still welcome to create it and distribute it for free. If you don't care that much, others probably don't either and we'll all be better off with less crap content swirling around out there.

The ad model has left us mired in a suffocating heap of crap content people claim has "value" because they're able to hack the system and get ad revenue from it. But in reality the content is secondary and just an excuse for the ads.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by godshatter on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:35AM (#15619958)
Well, I'm entitled to use my processors as I see fit, which means not visiting sites that try to run bitcoin miners.

It's not my responsibility to make sure some website I go to gets monetized. It's especially galling to me because I spent many formative years providing content to people for free, just because I wanted to and because I had an interest in it. In my personal opinion, all the people trying to ride the wave of monetizing their content should go run off and jump on that "new thing", whatever it is, as long as it's not the web.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by chii on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:44PM (#15616092)
> people hate paywalls .... An automatic cryptocurrency micropayment system

and yet they are willing to expend more electricity, at a huge inefficiency, to produce vastly less monetary value to the site. I would rather just pay the 1cent.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by zdkl on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:45AM (#15616767)
Yes the inefficiency in mining coins and the hefty fees impact the game theoretic value of this method but it doesn't mean there is no value in that form of compensation.

If the choice is between a barren wasteland of providers removing useful content from open access or waiting on 1% of users to subsidise the rest or giving the option to users to pay while they're accessing content, I'll take some form of choice to put my hardware to use for a while if thay eventually pays for hosting and a couple meals to the admin.

I think we agree that this does not work at scale but for small operators and some niches, I'm convinced this is a safe option for the siteowner not to have to mess with a payment processor and personnaly identifiable information.

This last point especially might become more important with the EU regulations on the horizon.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by TeMPOraL on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:44AM (#15617596)
The inefficiency makes it too unprofitable to even bother with it for small actors. What am I going to do with the fraction of a fraction of a cent my homepage mines over one year?
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by zdkl on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:16AM (#15617730)
I may be in a minority, but I believe the incentives of this method are "better" for the spirit of the open web, and I for one am prepared for the low revenue if it means this ideology may perdure.

The motivation is not to use *coins for their own sake, but that the alternative is getting scarier everyday.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by TeMPOraL on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:29AM (#15617785)
Yeah, the incentives are better, to be sure. Personally, I just don't like the implementation. I see current cryptocurrencies as a huge and completely unnecessary waste of energy. I don't like waste, but the concept of paying with computational resources isn't bad per se, IMO, and definitely better than paying with my attention (and then again with the data the site collected on me).

[0] - in the days of energy crisis, when we can't even switch to safer sources fast enough not to risk cooking ourselves on this planet.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by _jal on Thursday November 02, 2017 @07:57PM (#15615494)
It is rude to use people's property without asking[1]. I blackholed DNS for two sites who do this.

[1] I'd be OK with it if they prominently indicated that, how and why they were being electricity vampires. I still wouldn't use them, but at least it wouldn't be dishonest.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by emacsgifs on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:20PM (#15615631)
Playing a video without my consent, even if that is an implicit contract (i.e. lead advertising video) to watch content I want, is inherently dishonest.

The goal as always is to divert my attention, sell me something of dubious value or some other equally vacuous purpose.

If it pays the bills for worthwhile content producers to mine crypto currency as a form of micropayment, I think that's a better trade with lower psychic cost.

I have managed to make periods in my life completely free from unwanted content, and they are blissful compared to the never ending attention grabbing bs of the advertising and public relations engines of modern industry.

They are simply a waste of people's time and energy.

If crypto-mining is done openly, of course. It's certainly dishonest if it's not disclosed.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by fiddlerwoaroof on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:41PM (#15615765)
Consider it from the site-owner’s perspective: if I visit someone’s site and if they are using the content on that site as a source of income, isn’t it rude for me to consume that content without paying for it? Ads and tracking have well-known trade-offs cryptocurrency mining have other tradeoffs but, in the end, might end up to be a better option.

Also, I’m conceiving of this more as a web API browsers can implement that sites can tap into than as a chunk of JavaScript that a site pushes to its users. So, arguably, you’d have consented to this scheme by installing the browser and enabling the feature.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by ACow_Adonis on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:42PM (#15616084)
Not if you do the equivalent of hanging a sign on the front door saying "please come in". Which I would argue is the equivalent of what you are doing by putting your content on a communication protocol designed to make it freely available.

Indeed, such behavior is reminiscent of one of the oldest tourist scams in the book, no doubt experienced by anyone who has traveled the world in any amount.

That is to say, the mark is offered something for free, usually some trivial trinket, or a photo, or something like that. The mark believes it is for free and accepts it. Once the mark has accepted the "free" item, then the scammer changes tune and implies that they should be paid for this exchange, playing on the marks feelings of guilt, obligations and fairness.

Apparently this is now a respectable internet business model. Hah!

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by zdkl on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:53AM (#15616797)
I believe the general thought here is more to have the mining (and content) behind a good old paywall, featuring prominently your different options, with "mine for access" just one of the available options.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by TeMPOraL on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:48AM (#15617612)
Well, implemented that way it would be honest. I'll happily commend people doing that even though personally, I would most likely not use their site (and especially the cryptocoin option, which is a hure resource waste).

Honesty breeds honesty. I disable ad blocking on sites that ask nicely and don't spam with ads too much.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by akoncius on Thursday November 02, 2017 @05:07PM (#15614301)
sure and drain the whole battery on my smartphone/laptop while I watch that video? thanks but no thanks.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by fiddlerwoaroof on Thursday November 02, 2017 @05:16PM (#15614366)
The browser could throttle the cc mining based on your battery level/power state. In theory, your device could even mine while charging and then distribute the mined tokens later.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by Zelizz on Thursday November 02, 2017 @05:27PM (#15614443)
Or you could distribute tokens mined from a computer that's plugged in somewhere, or even purchased with normal currency. But I'm not sure I'd want to navigate a web where I'm constantly making purchase decisions with every hyperlink.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by akoncius on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:36PM (#15614947)
so why bother with additional steps (and cryptocurrency) instead of just pay with real money from the beginning? you are suggesting to introduce just additional unnecessary steps.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by fiddlerwoaroof on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:42PM (#15615780)
Some kind of micropayment system would be ok with me, but the nice thing about a system that doesn’t use real money is that it doesn’t factor into my budget in the same way.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by chii on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:46PM (#15616097)
how could it not use real money (i.e, it has no monetary value), and yet be an acceptable form of payment?
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by akoncius on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:35PM (#15614939)
so I could not get access to content if my battery is low and I cannot mine cc ? or would I get access with "credit" so I would need to return "load" later?
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by fiddlerwoaroof on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:36PM (#15615724)
I’m not sure, I’m just sketching out a solution to content monetization that might solve problems with current monetization schemes.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by akoncius on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:38AM (#15617092)
I understand, I just wanted to show that there are lots of implications and it’s not that easy to solve.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by s73ver_ on Thursday November 02, 2017 @05:51PM (#15614617)
That's even scummier than most of the ad targeting stuff out there.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by FatalBaboon on Saturday November 04, 2017 @07:00AM (#15624526)
This is going to be very easy to block: disable processing after page-load, block the most popular cryptomining JS scripts...
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by marlokk on Thursday November 02, 2017 @04:29PM (#15613986)
ethics