News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by pmoriarty on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:57AM (#15611526)
"For many of us in the early 2000s, the web was magical. You connected a phone line to your computer, let it make a funny noise and suddenly you had access to a seemingly-unending repository of thoughts and ideas from people around the world.

"It might not seem like much now, but what that noise represented was the stuff of science fiction at the time: near-instantaneous communication at a planetary scale. It was a big deal."

I kind of yearn for the pre-web days... when the primary means of communication was mailing lists and newsgroups, without any commercial interest.

The creation of the web was when it all started to go wrong. Corporations started to flock to it like flies and tried their best to turn it in to an ad-laden, spyware-laden, dumbed-down, one-way broadcasting medium not too far from television.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by psyc on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:37PM (#15611954)
Indeed, the Web became a juggernaut bandwagon, and got all the attention. Not for nothing. But I always felt the potential of the Internet was neglected as a result. There are other apps, notably MMOs, BitTorrent, blockchain and other P2P things.

I sincerely hope that the “re-decentralization” movement is able to attract hackers and gain steam.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by eterm on Thursday November 02, 2017 @03:14PM (#15613372)
That requires net neutrality. In general I think there's a danger that ISPs become "Web service providers" and refuse anything which isn't HTTP from rDNS-able addresses.

Of course people will just end up recreating TCP over HTTPS to get around these sorts of things, but I don't think we're headed toward a decentralised and opinionated (i.e. not heavily filtered based on traffic analysis) network.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by pfraze on Thursday November 02, 2017 @03:06PM (#15613312)
I gave a talk about a P2P Web at PDX node just a bit ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ep0ZIe6i10

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by anigbrowl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @05:34PM (#15614479)
I disagree slightly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Canter_and_Martha_Sie...

I still remember the day that these assholes showed up and ruined a wonderful thing, and as you can see I'm not really over it.

Where things went wrong on the web, imho, was when business started leaning on people to put graphic corporate branding front and center, encouraging the abuse of things like tables and so on to create something that looked more like a magazine advert. Now, you could argue that such commercial pressures were got people to throw money at the WWW int he first place and rove technological development, and you'd have a point - the early web was pretty dull to look at. I wrote a book on how to use it for consumers around 1994 and every so often I take it off the shelf for a giggle at how primitive it looks in the screenshots. But at that time it was much better curated and the browsing experience was much more rewarding in many respects, although I'm obviously influenced by some nostalgia for a simpler era.

I really hoped to see the semantic web recapture some of the user-centric benefits of the early web, but development on that front seems slooooooow, and my ideas about a graph centric virtual space seem too sci-fi for me to even get meaningful answers from people I've asked.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by vvanders on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:14PM (#15612266)
Ironically the closest thing I've found to the hey-day of the internet(~'99) for me is Ham Radio.

It's hard to explain but it's got the same feel of people who tinker and enjoy technology for the hell of it. With HF you get communication all over the globe.

It's also explicitly non-commercial so it's stayed relatively undeveloped. Granted you'll never see the exponential of communication that the internet unleashed due to limited spectrum but that might be in some ways a blessing.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by ThinkingGuy on Thursday November 02, 2017 @04:11PM (#15613824)
I generally agree, but while there's still a strong DIY spirit in the ham radio world, especially in the hardware field, I often find myself disappointed by many hams' willingness to surrender control and freedom to proprietary protocols and software (PACTOR, D-STAR, Winlink, Ham Radio Delux, to name a few) in exchange for convenience.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by vvanders on Thursday November 02, 2017 @04:35PM (#15614055)
Oh yes, I hate the implementation(love the tech) behind PACTOR. Of course there's also the really annoying symbol rate limit regulations as well.

Thankfully K1JT via WSJT has been doing some awesome open source weak signal work. FT8 is pretty sweet and really exploded recently.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by wrycoder on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:08PM (#15616411)
FT8 is remarkable tech, but it’s essentially computers talking to each other. Not the same as person to person through the static noises, which is the old ham way. Refer to the recent discussion/dismay on the Topband (i.e. 160 meters) mail list.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by vvanders on Friday November 03, 2017 @10:36AM (#15619468)
I think FT8 is just one aspect, I don't think you're going to see CW/SSB die off because of it. FT8 has some pretty strict timing requirements for instance that make it hard to use as a portable station.

I think ham radio is split between the people who like the social/contest aspect of it and those of us who like to tinker(and a subset that covers people who like both). 97.1b pretty clearly lays out a mandate to advance the state of the art and I think it's pretty incredible to pick out a message -20db below the noise floor.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by wrycoder on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:32PM (#15620843)
Agreed. I have a foot in both camps myself.

But there are two issues: FT8 is just a contact, with maybe a 73, so it’s even more impersonal than contesting (which is extremely popular, of course). Breaking a pileup is pretty much left to the computer, rather than due to operator skill.

And the old timers on 160 who earned their DXCC (100 countries - very difficult on 160) certificates the hard way using CW / SSB aren’t happy with the relative ease of getting an FT8 DXCC award. The ARRL can fix that, however.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by vvanders on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:30PM (#15622005)
Yeah, I think there's a ton of room for FT8 if it can break out of the auto-programmed sequence, I hate that part too. I really wish it would do progressive decoding, it's possible in theory.

Over in the SOTA community we're looking at a few potential solutions. There's nothing in the core FT8 spec that mandates the standard QSO exchange and there's support for free messages(at a max of 13 chars).

As someone with a KX3 I think anyone running more than 10W is at a huge advantage ;). You're right though, the right way is to split the awards by mode/type. That said I find the content stuff just as impersonal and find the relaxed atmosphere of SOTA much more appealing.

That's what makes ham radio so awesome though, it's all fair game. I just hate to see people try to squash things just because it's not the "old way". That part seems really counter to the experimental nature of the hobby.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by jhpankow on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:59AM (#15616811)
I think FT8 is a necessary evil at this point. It's good to see problems with a mode basically getting too popular rather than the bands being dead. Some of those users will move to explore new digital modes as they evolve. The future is bright for ham radio.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by rusk on Monday November 06, 2017 @06:13AM (#15634694)
I think this is to do with the barrier to entry. You have to have a certain level of sophistication to get into Ham, just like you did with Internet in the early days. Then came the long September ...

Facebook, twitter had the same feeling of "exclusivity" for a while. Twitter lasted a bit longer because the capability to compose your thoughts in < 140 chars demanded a certain level of sophistication but then came #winning and shit-posting.

These days I find as a developer even, as that segment expands there's an increasing amount of noise but I've gotten into emacs recently and can appreciate the marked increase in tranquility there. Nobody's trying to make a buck off my questions and answers. Nobody has a commercial (or other) interest in keeping me clueless.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by shangxiao on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:33PM (#15611923)
I love the fact that IRC is still alive and kicking. The #django channel on freenode is still pretty active as opposed other communities that flock to slack or gitter.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by pmoriarty on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:49PM (#15612046)
Technical chat on IRC is still alive and well on Freenode, but non-technical chat has mostly moved on from IRC to other media.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by digi_owl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @03:10PM (#15613349)
Indeed.

I still recall watching this change firsthand.

When i got my first modem, i was informed of a regional IRC channel on one of the big networks. And from that day onwards i would have my client set to connect to that channel, and fire it up alongside the email client right after the handshake completed.

But at one point the channel died, and the cause of death was twofold.

one part was the creation first generation social media services, and their web based chat rooms.

Another part, and perhaps a bigger part, was that Microsoft made a strong push of MSN Messenger with Windows XP.

This resulted in a more clique style communications form online, as you had to know people and get their account info before being able to contact them. With IRC you joined the channel and that was it.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by visarga on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:06PM (#15616181)
Subreddits resemble IRC from that point of view - you just need to join the right one.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by digi_owl on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:04AM (#15617426)
Kinda, but not as real time.

I recall having on the fly conversations about TV programs on IRC.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by submeta on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:55AM (#15618426)
Twitter! When it comes to the real time aspect I know nothing better than Twitter.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by throwanem on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:10AM (#15618501)
What makes it so good?
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by submeta on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:22AM (#15618973)
Whatever event happens right now (WhatsApp down? Elections in a country? A TV show running on TV [1]?) go to Twitter and search for it with relevant keywords and you'll find people writing about it.

[1] at least in Germany

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by throwanem on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:02AM (#15619672)
In my experience that's a firehose with no meaningful real-time quality metric available. Perhaps there's something I'm missing.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by rusk on Monday November 06, 2017 @06:00AM (#15634641)
I wholeheartedly agree. It's great as long as the keyword you're searching for is easily distinguishable. Whenever something happens and I want to find out ahead of the news-cycle it's my go to ...
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by elsurudo on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:40PM (#15622058)
I find it overwhelming. I don't know how to get over that.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by lukevers on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:19AM (#15618942)
I have an IRC channel that myself and a few friends use every day. It’s probably 30% technical and 70% chat. I do wish more people still used it, but I guess most people like chat platforms with fancy features now.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by amorphid on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:15PM (#15611719)
I never got into the pre-web stuff, so I don't know exactly what the differences are. Don't those things still exist? Isn't the comment section of this HN post a form of async, text-only communication?
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by pmoriarty on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:24PM (#15611815)
It's still centralized, and owned and run by a commercial entity that uses it to further their own interests, with a record of its users' interests and opinions.

The capabilities and features of web forums are also really dumbed-down and limited compared to what you could get with the mail clients and news clients of even 20 or 30 years ago.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by ntoe845noe on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:04PM (#15612177)
Yeah, I'm really surprised that most web forum software doesn't even let you sort comments by author, date, subject (which most comments don't have), etc. There were all sorts of useful things that usenet provided. (Not the least of which is kill files for ignoring trolls.)
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by anigbrowl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @05:38PM (#15614514)
I think this is deliberate. Have you noticed how google makes it...very very difficult to get results of things in date order? When I've asked people who work there why (often in relation to things where the date information is well-structured, like legal opinions or scientific papers) they always respond with some vague and very obvious bullshit.

Long story short, a lot of the large internet companies withhold or obscure functionality that users really want in order to keep them engaged and sell more ads. We have the technology to do a lot better than we are doing, but capital prefers to manufacture scarcity in the guise of abundance.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by Razengan on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:29PM (#15616026)
> We have the technology to do a lot better than we are doing, but capital prefers to manufacture scarcity in the guise of abundance.

Yes, the tight coupling of progress to profits is becoming very counter-productive. Too many good ideas and products that get killed because they can’t make enough money (and the criteria for “enough” keeps rising unnecessarily and exponentially, i.e. something has to sell in tens of millions to be considered a “success” even if half a million would be profitable.)

We will need to rethink the role of money in human civilization if we don’t want it to become a corporate hell where every action is dictated by how much money it makes.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by visarga on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:09PM (#15616192)
> a lot of the large internet companies withhold or obscure functionality that users really want

For example, Google only lets you get a few results at the top of their search. What if you want to get the whole 100,000 of them? Sometimes it's important, for science.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by anigbrowl on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:46PM (#15623216)
I'm surprised there's no way to pay for that access.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by DerfNet on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:57PM (#15612122)
Could you expand on that second line a bit? I'm curious what features we're currently missing out on compared to decades past.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by pmoriarty on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:09PM (#15612228)
From a recent thread on "Why kernel development still uses email": [1]

"This is one of the things that web-based forums have yet to get right. Email (and NNTP news) clients from 20 or 30 years ago are far superior in this respect, because they can intelligently deal with threading and folding. These features alone makes large conversations much easier to deal with than on web-forums.

To add to that, email (and NNTP news) clients even from 20 or 30 years ago have other powerful features that web forums have yet to catch up on:

- kill files[2] (which you can use to filter out unwanted articles/mails based on content or metadata such as subject, user, etc)

- scoring

- user-configurable anti-spam filtering or other "intelligent" filtering (such as bayesian filtering not just for spam/ham, but for interesting/unintersting content)

- tagging not just on a site-wide level but at the client level so each user can tag messages/articles the way they make sense to them

- other advanced filtering and scripting based on any of the above

Web-based forums are just incredibly primitive compared to this many-decade-old technology."

[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15373179

[2] - https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Kill_file

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by ptero on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:41PM (#15612493)
I cannot agree more. When one is used to thread and folding for email or usenet, the user experience of web mail/forum seems woefully inadequate.

When I first saw that gmail starts a new thread when you change a subject I did not believe it at first; I thought I have made a mistake in replying. Text-based clients of old (tin, pine, etc.) still outperform current monstrosities by a wide margin.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by krapp on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:18PM (#15614811)
That's not an inherent limitation of the web or web forums, though - I've seen those features implemented in a lot of them.

And of course, there's nothing stopping anyone from building a web forum and offering an endpoint for third party clients, they just don't, mostly because web forums themselves have more or less been superseded by Facebook, Twitter and Youtube, and no one seems to care about them anymore.

The only pre-web feature that web forums can't really implement is decentralization.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by CaptSpify on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:58PM (#15613235)
the tl;dr is: The user controls the content, not the site.

One of the things we keep forgetting as we move forward is that client-control > server-control.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by flukus on Thursday November 02, 2017 @07:21PM (#15615285)
> One of the things we keep forgetting as we move forward is that client-control > server-control.

I'm not sure if we're forgetting it, as an industry we seem hell bent on removing user control. SaaS, cloud hosting, software walled gardens, invasive automatic updates, hidden software in hardware, etc. We're losing more and more control all the time. Around here it's nearly heresy to suggest the companies run their own servers.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by CaptSpify on Friday November 03, 2017 @10:18AM (#15619354)
It's increasingly frustrating too as we've shown over and over and over again at how bad the security, user-interaction, pricing and support is for all of those systems. Yet we don't care, because "it's easier".

There's a clear agenda to take back the power and voice that the computers are giving to the common man: http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/coming-war-general-com...

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by wrycoder on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:11PM (#15616422)
gnus FTW!!
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by zeveb on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:58PM (#15612638)
NNTP was often hosted locally to the machine that you were reading on, so browsing it is incredibly fast, so much faster than using a website that it's not funny.

Plus, the clients had things like killfiles, so that one could ignore a troll or a subject (or even fancier stuff, like scoring: maybe a user tends to have worthless comments, but what he says about one subject is really worthwhile).

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by Santosh83 on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:34PM (#15611930)
Usenet and mailing lists are distributed. Web forums (like HN) are not. You can setup your own NNTP or mail server if you wanted, but there's only one place to post HN comments & that's right here, subject to all the pros & cons that entails.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by DanBC on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:32PM (#15611908)
One difference is that HN is hosted on a server under the control of YC.

If YC ever decide to destroy HN they can.

With an HN Usenet newsgroup it'd be distributed across all the servers that carry that group. You could download software and host it yourself.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by eighthnate on Thursday November 02, 2017 @03:20PM (#15613411)
The sweetspot was mid 90s to mid 00s. We had the benefit of the web without the all-encompassing corporate control. It was a more open and freer place back then. But as the internet got more popular and with more corporate/government involvement, the standards were lowered to accommodate the lowest common denominator.

Less free speech, more control, less privacy and more ads.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by b0rsuk on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:48AM (#15619183)
I loved the nested discussion of mailgroups. Compared to message boards and forums of today (yesterday? I think they may be passe?) they enabled interesting, meandering discussions. It's the way discussion flows between two intelligent people. Forcing discussion into an arbitrary topic has 2 problems:

* some people are unhappy because they feel constrained * topics are an illusion anyway, people do post off-topic messages anyway, depending on strictness of moderation. People interested by the original topic are annoyed by the inevitable off-topic talk.

Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by pingiun on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:09PM (#15611656)
Luckily mailing lists and newsgroups still exist, some newsgroups are even still active. (Mailings lists too of course, but they are generally created for a specific purpose)
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by pmoriarty on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:15PM (#15611724)
They exist, as do mechanical typewriters and bulletin board systems, but most people don't use them. The web "won" long ago, and newsgroups and mailing lists are now mostly a historical curiosity.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by AstralStorm on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:16PM (#15611730)
Also forums for special interests. (Outgrowth of a bulletin board.) Some do not even abuse their data and users.
Re:Against an Increasingly User-Hostile Web by amelius on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:11PM (#15612769)
That web still exists more or less.

If you want to use the web in that way, just remove YouTube, Facebook, etc. from your DNS.