News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by fusiongyro on Wednesday November 01, 2017 @11:46PM (#15607693)
Without even looking at the article, I would guess so simply because what Netflix purports to do is what they actually do and how they make money, so there's no ethical shell game being played against starry-eyed junior developers.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Wednesday November 01, 2017 @11:52PM (#15607715)
> so there's no ethical shell game being played

Netflix has some shady stuff like DRM going on, while pretending it's not their fault it was pushed into HTML standard.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by lightbyte on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:26AM (#15610656)
As someone that works for a company with a moderately similar business model as netflix, I can almost guarantee that Netflix is not imposing this DRM by their own volition. It is highly likely that the owners of the rights to their content force the DRM as a condition of allowing their content to be used.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by bborud on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:30AM (#15611293)
As someone who used to work in a company that was in the streaming business I can confirm that content providers are exceptionally paranoid about the raw content they provide. You spend all your time trying to minimize content provider restrictions and requirements that impact the experience of your users.

Want a happy life? Stay out of any sort of video or music related business. It just isn't worth the trouble.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:04AM (#15611029)
> I can almost guarantee that Netflix is not imposing this DRM by their own volition.

Where can we get their own films and shows DRM-free?

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by ksk on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:58AM (#15611540)
How much are you willing to pay for it?
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:06PM (#15611616)
To pay for something, it should be available first. So it's pointless to ask, if you can't buy it for any price.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by ksk on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:21PM (#15611790)
Well if a lot of people were willing to pay more for DRM-free, or if people avoided DRM'ed content, it would make business sense to do that. Its easier to effect change from the bottom up, than demanding a company change their policies just because you disagree with them. For example, EMI experimented with selling their entire catalog DRM-free on itunes for 30 cents more per track in 2007. I don't think it turned out well for them. That's the only one I remember off the top of my head. Seems like you're interested in this topic so you may have other examples.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:31PM (#15611901)
What makes sense is to offer an option instead of saying "we know better what you should want, so we won't offer it".

Music sells just fine DRM-free on Bandcamp. Games sell fine DRM-free on GOG. So I don't see any reason for films to be different. Lack of DRM-free video has nothing to do with lack of demand, but more with paranoia and backwards thinking of some legacy media execs.

See https://www.gog.com/forum/general/introducing_gogcom_drmfree...

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by ksk on Thursday November 02, 2017 @04:11PM (#15613817)
Music sells fine with DRM too, so do games. Not sure what your point is. I showed you that EMI offered an option with and without DRM. We know the results. Do you have examples where DRM and non-DRM products were offered, and users overwhelmingly chose the non-DRM product? I'm genuinely curious to see if it has ever happened and how successful it was.

In any case, DRM is one of those things that I don't see going away. It might change its form. People have gotten used to the convenience of not owning digital goods and merely renting them, and companies have gotten used to making money off of keeping users running on their subscription treadmill.

The easiest way to combat DRM is to start gofundme / indie gogo campaigns, where the developer gets paid upfront, and that way they don't care about DRM since they already made money.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @05:04PM (#15614275)
> Music sells fine with DRM too, so do games. Not sure what your point is.

My point is, that releasing for more people = more profit. And the opposite - not serving the demand = lost sales. It's pretty straightforward. DRM-free markets show there is demand. And those who refuse to release DRM-free show they don't do it not because of money, but for some side, shady reasons.

Not sure what your EMI example shows. They offered with DRM and without DRM, and then just with DRM, but it sounds like they didn't address the audience right. I.e. they should offer in all stores, not in one place exclusively.

> The easiest way to combat DRM is to start gofundme / indie gogo campaigns, where the developer gets paid upfront, and that way they don't care about DRM since they already made money.

DRM is not about money, it's about control (i.e. power). A different kind of urge some have. That's why using rational business arguments often doesn't work with such people. Control freaks don't care about lost profits, if in the end they feel "we are in charge".

> In any case, DRM is one of those things that I don't see going away.

It was broken through for music and games. Film industry is the one most plagued by it. And I agree - I see no sign of progress in it. It's too backwards thinking.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by imustbeevil on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:48PM (#15612554)
Developer of The Banner Saga when asked if the second game would be on GOG.

> sadly once we released DRM Free for The Banner Saga we saw our game get pirated like wildfire. Which is something we're keen to avoid as much possible. We haven't given it much thought at this point to be honest when it comes to GoG.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/281640/discussions/0/39218452...

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:06PM (#15612722)
Which is a pretty clueless response. Avoiding GOG will only increase such pirating (by decreasing legal sources for the game). Developers should know better.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by imustbeevil on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:26PM (#15612935)
> Avoiding GOG will only increase such pirating (by decreasing legal sources for the game).

Until you provide a single source you're not saying anything worth responding to.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:28PM (#15612962)
Not sure how those developers measured piracy in general.

But piracy is naturally increased by limiting legal sources for buying something. Other developers commented on this very issue, saying that existing DRM increased piracy.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by imustbeevil on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:31PM (#15612977)
I'm not going to continue this off topic conversation.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:33PM (#15612998)
> The new Assassins Creed has been pirated Zero times because they made the DRM as invasive as possible.

It was also not bought by people who see this obtrusive nonsense which drains CPU resources and degrades performance as something to avoid. In the end, they only lost sales. I wouldn't call Ubisoft or any other legacy publisher rational. Rather irrational control freaks.

Besides, Ubisoft's DRM will be broken, same as all others.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by imustbeevil on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:43PM (#15613100)
See above.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:49PM (#15613152)
Where did you get data that DRM prevented lost sales? It's vaporware. Your link doesn't show in any way, that if they'd have released it DRM free, they wouldn't have more sales in result.

It's boring that you support anti-user methodology like DRM and try to justify it. It's been debunked multiple times.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by megaman22 on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:34PM (#15613015)
People really pirate games still? Steam and GoG have made actually paying for games so easy I haven't even thought about it for years.

There was a time when you couldn't find most games in a physical store, and sketchy cracked versions on PirateBay or your favorite tracker were the alternative. Of course, I have orders of magnitude more disposable income now than I used to, as well.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:37PM (#15613043)
> People really pirate games still?

Some do it for sport, especially DRMed ones. I.e. they see DRM as something to break. So the mere presence of DRM is an incentive to pirate for them.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by fusiongyro on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:41AM (#15607892)
The rest of my point is basically "on their junior developers." What I'm referring to is the mismatch between what Google and Facebook actually do (monetize machine learning to sell ads) compared to what they claim to do when they recruit ("come change the world" etc.). The same is not true of Netflix with DRM.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:46AM (#15607908)
Well, I doubt Netflix tell junior developers when they recruit them, that they are now in league with MPAA and on the wrong side of all things copyright. DRM is just a part of it all.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by fusiongyro on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:08AM (#15607989)
I guess I'm giving you a tip o' the hat as we pass each other by on our respective hobby horses.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by lr4444lr on Thursday November 02, 2017 @07:30AM (#15609399)
Comment made my day.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by WatchDog on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:18AM (#15609669)
What do you mean by they pretend it's not their fault? They seem to be very open about it, even boasting about their DRM work on their blog[1]. As unethical as DRM may be, I don't think Netflix have been dishonest about their involvement with it.

https://medium.com/netflix-techblog/html5-video-at-netflix-7...

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:41PM (#15611990)
In the past, when there were discussions in W3C about it, and Netflix were blamed for bringing that garbage in, they were saying it's not their fault but they are forced by publishers.

And this claim is a pile of trash:

> This is a requirement for any premium subscription video service.

DRM isn't a requirement. It's pushed by paranoid media execs, and Netflix should have control over it for their own video.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by nickonline on Wednesday November 01, 2017 @11:56PM (#15607725)
Pretty minor part of their business though
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:34AM (#15607861)
Still a major impact on the standard itself.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by CommentCard on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:48AM (#15607915)
It's the reason why Netflix on Chrome and Firefox isn't in 1080p. Due to DRM support Netflix supports 1080p on Edge though.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by nickonline on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:27AM (#15608058)
but we're talking about an ethical shell game impacting mental state not the technical standards for the wider internet.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:31AM (#15608070)
I'd say being hypocrites about their DRM attitude is unethical enough.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by imustbeevil on Wednesday November 01, 2017 @11:59PM (#15607738)
How can Netflix survive if you're able to pay $15 and download every video they have?
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by will_hughes on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:13AM (#15607782)
Someone who's going to pirate can readily get all of that content from various sources already.

I highly doubt that anyone has been persuaded to buy a Netflix subscription because of Netflix's use of DRM.

As for 'shady' -- well, not a word I'd necessarily use, but there's plenty of examples where DRM has blocked access to legitimately purchased content.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by kerbalspacepro on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:15PM (#15612810)
Netflix isn't using DRM for the customers, its using DRM for the content providers. It isn't there job to fix the rest of the Internet
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:08PM (#15616188)
> Netflix isn't using DRM for the customers, its using DRM for the content providers.

That doesn't for their own video. Whom are they using it for in that case?

> It isn't there job to fix the rest of the Internet

Apparently it's their job to break it though, by pushing this garbage into he standard.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:35AM (#15607870)
1. DRM only hurts legitimate users.

2. Netflix claimed it's not their intent to use DRM, but demand comes from film publishers who distribute content through them.

3. Netflix make their own films now, but you can't find them DRM-free (legally).

Ergo, it's also their fault DRM was pushed into HTML. Q.E.D.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by jackcnreturns on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:05AM (#15607970)
For whatever reason you seem to be on a puritanical crusade against anything DRM.

So tell me again how Netflix subscribers, who are only purchasing the right to be able to stream videos on a limited release cycle, are hurt by Netflix's use of DRM? I followed the massive draconian DRM push by the gaming industry, MPAA and RIAA during the 00s and let me tell you son - this ain't nothing close.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by flukus on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:09AM (#15607991)
As someone else mentioned, netflix subscribers are hurt because only people using edge can get the 1080p version due to DRM. Non-paying pirates get the good version, paying customers get the low quality one.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by skybrian on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:36AM (#15608087)
Who are these videophiles who actually care about 1080p? It seems like if the show is any good, you don't need 1080p to enjoy it.

Okay, I'm old, but we watched movies on VHS and it was a lot better than broadcast signal in a rural area. DVD's are very clear in comparison. HDTV is just icing on the cake.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by CaptSpify on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:49AM (#15608124)
And TV is a luxury, so you should be grateful that you get any at all. Back in my day, we didn't have nearly as many kids on our lawns, and we were happy for it.

/sarcasm

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by flukus on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:49AM (#15608125)
I do and I'm far from a videophile, but I do have a nice big TV that I sit rather close too. It's a nice to have, but at times it's a really nice to have, especially for things like blockbuster movies.

Two other areas I find it really critical are sports (not a favorite topic around these parts), watching the silky smooth world cup stream in 1080p a few years was breathtaking, another one is animated shows. It seems unintuitive and I have no idea why, but something like futurama is much better in 1080p.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:40AM (#15608100)
If you have a high resolution display, you'll get grainy video if the source is not high resolution enough.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by ionised on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:51AM (#15609240)
Is this satire?
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by skybrian on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:29PM (#15614895)
Nope, I really don't get the appeal.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:08AM (#15607986)
Not whatever, but quite simple reason of DRM being unethical overreaching preemptive policing methodology, on top of which is built an entire corrupted and undemocratic set of legal mechanisms like DMCA-1201 (anti-circumvention provisions).

>So tell me again how Netflix subscribers, who are only purchasing the right to be able to stream videos on a limited release cycle, are hurt by Netflix's use of DRM?

Others already brought examples above with this DRM limiting usability of where videos can be watched. But that's a minor damage in comparison with damage done by DRM pushed into HTML standard itself, in which Netflix is complicit.

See https://boingboing.net/2017/03/21/we-cant-handle-the-truth.h...

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by dec0dedab0de on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:12AM (#15607777)
Because it has the effect of making it difficult for honest users to use their product on platforms they arent developing for. While at the same time pirates have no trouble getting their content.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by pmoriarty on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:06AM (#15607758)
"If you want to steal shit that's your prerogative, but don't pretend like you have moral high ground."

Whether making a copy of a sequence of numbers without depriving the "owner" of those numbers of anything is theft is debatable.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by analognoise on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:51AM (#15607923)
That sequence of 0s and 1s cost money to make.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by CaptSpify on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:47AM (#15608117)
But it's free to distribute. So instead of charging customers for distribution, they should be charging customers the up-front cost of production.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by SapphireSun on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:47AM (#15611440)
I'm not against this, but it goes against the grain of a capitalist economy as it does not maximize overall profits. For this concept to work at scale, we might need to rejigger the whole economy.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:49AM (#15611452)
It goes against the concept of commercialized art I'd say. Which is probably a good thing.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by CaptSpify on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:46PM (#15612025)
and?

Just because our economic models are out of date doesn't mean we need to change the way we behave to keep shoe-horning them in. It means we need to change our models to reflect reality.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by SapphireSun on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:46PM (#15615028)
To be clear, I am totally on board with reimagining the economy. Sorry, that didn't come through in my post.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by CaptSpify on Friday November 03, 2017 @10:59AM (#15619641)
My apologies. I feel my response was a bit defensive. I guess I'm just used to people arguing that "it would hurt because of $short_term_economic_issue, so we shouldn't consider it at all!"
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by camhenlin on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:55AM (#15608157)
How do you suggest that they do that?
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by CaptSpify on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:34AM (#15608298)
That is a good question, and I'm not sure I have a good answer. Kickstarter and Patreon seem to be doing pretty well, but AFAIK they haven't been used to such a scale so they may not work for this.

This is a big issue and our economy is largely suffering for it, but old-world thinking about treating digital goods like physical goods is a poor response.

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by TruffleMuffin on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:54AM (#15609938)
Veronica Mars movie was made through kickstarter way back when. That was successful, and specifically covered cost of production. I can't remember the donation system, but most tiers got free digital copy of the film.
Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by shmerl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:18AM (#15611171)
It was a total failure at release though, since WB didn't make it available DRM-free[1]. It's a counter example of how to do things. The end result was - never trust WB.

A proper example would be something like Kung Fury[2].

1. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140314/23410326583/warne...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fury

Re:Netflix Employees Are Happier with Their Job Than Faceboo... by jameskegel on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:13AM (#15608222)
Crowd fund production