News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by saas_co_de on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:12PM (#15572620)
why not provide an advanced feature that alerts you any time a cert changes, similar to what we get with SSH?

at least then security conscious users could make decisions for themselves.

Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by PhantomGremlin on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:34PM (#15572757)
why not provide an advanced feature that alerts you any time a cert changes

Because certificates change ... all ... the ... time. Again ... and ... again ... and ... again.

Years ago I tried using a Firefox addon called Certificate Patrol. I spent half my time approving changes. Here's a Stack Exchange question on exactly that topic. It's a few years old; I don't know if things have gotten better:

https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/41578/why-does-...

Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by lucb1e on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:00PM (#15572927)
> Because certificates change ... all ... the ... time.

Not OP but I do see potential there. I've thought about it before. Try looking at it from a solution perspective rather than from "why don't we already" and "what would the issues be": certs change, yeah, but usually because they (almost) expired. We should check when Let'sEncrypt renews by default (is that 14 days before expiry?) and what common practice is, and go from there in triggering a warning.

And if there is some uncommon reason to roll over (e.g. suspected compromise), a header could be set either in advance or one could be set that signs the new fingerprint with the old key. The new one shouldn't be pinned right away since an attacker might have misused a compromised key, and a warning symbol could be displayed similar to the mixed-content warning. If someone is suspicious and it can't be delayed, they can call their bank (or whatever it is) and they'd know about it and be able to confirm things out of band.

I'm just conceptualizing but I don't see anything that's not easily solved. I think it could be a good addition.

Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by user5994461 on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:10PM (#15573260)
The big sites have multiple certificates for a single domain and you will get one randomly depending on what server you happen to it.
Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by schoen on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:48PM (#15573168)
> We should check when Let'sEncrypt renews by default (is that 14 days before expiry?)

30 days in Certbot defaults, and I think that's an official Let's Encrypt recommendation for authors of other clients.

Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by saas_co_de on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:48PM (#15573167)
I agree that the utility of this feature would be limited to a small percent of users for a small percent of cases.

The SSH example comes to mind because that is a system that does something similar.

In my experience every single SSH error on a key change has been a false positive but everyone accepts the high false positive rate because it is worth it to detect that one case where you are actually compromised.

Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by daira on Saturday October 28, 2017 @08:47AM (#15574975)
But you don't detect that one case where you are actually compromised. You dismiss it like you do all the false positives. At best, when you get pwned you think back to having dismissed the key change warning and know what happened, but how does that actually help you?
Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by scott00 on Saturday October 28, 2017 @10:38AM (#15575270)
I actually caught a semi-real one once. My new employer was MITMing all ssh traffic.
Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by saas_co_de on Saturday October 28, 2017 @02:36PM (#15576175)
this does not follow at all. any time a cert has changed i either know the cause or verify the cause before using the server.
Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by wnevets on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:47PM (#15572841)
>Years ago I tried using a Firefox addon called Certificate Patrol.

yeah I too gave up on using that addon for the same reason

Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by posixplz on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:38PM (#15572793)
I imagine things have only gotten "worse" with Let'sEncrypt issuing 90 certificates.
Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by Confiks on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:56PM (#15572903)
You pin a public key (of which the private key signs the leaf certificate, the sub-CA or the CA) with HPKP, not the certificate. With the default settings, LetsEncrypt re-uses the keypair for a new certificate.
Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by emmelaich on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:34PM (#15573108)
Why not have it approve an ultimate CA instead? Or least one up in the chain.
Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by nsgi on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:31PM (#15573086)
The user has no realistic way to determine whether a certificate change is legitimate or due to a man-in-the-middle, even if they are technical, unless they are told out-of-band. Normal users are likely to just click through any warnings, because they don't care about security as much as getting their work done, particularly since a warning is almost certainly a false alarm.
Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by saas_co_de on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:53PM (#15573185)
I agree. I wouldn't see this as being for average anonymous users using some mass market service.

It would only be useful in cases where people are willing to pay a price (in convenience) for security, understand the tech well enough to use it, and have some relationship with the domain owner that allows out-of-band verification of cert changes.

Re:Public Key Pinning Being Removed from Chrome by technion on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:11PM (#15573264)
You can always monitor for any time a cert is issued on your own domains. Couple that with Expect-CT and you have something as good as HKPK, without the downside.

(Disclaimer: I run an open source monitoring project)