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Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by jpatokal on Friday October 20, 2017 @04:35PM (#15518946)
Aussie here: Good riddance. This country is at the end of Earth in terms of supply chains and export markets, has a small local market and has extremely high labor costs -- all in all, a terrible place to build the kind of megafactory you need to stay competitive these days. The only reason they managed to survive even this long is massive government subsidies, and I applaud the fact that the government had the guts to finally pull the plug.

All that said, the transition away is going to have a high human cost, particularly in Adelaide which just doesn't have a whole lot else going economically. But my wife used to work for a Ford supplier in Melbourne, and that city has managed to absorb Ford's shutdown a few years ago without too much pain. (Nearby Geelong, though, had both the main factory and a steel mill, and is having a harder time.)

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by dalbasal on Friday October 20, 2017 @06:08PM (#15519440)
The subsidies were not that huge (at least recently), in the scheme of things. The local manufacturers were basically given a much slower reduction of tariffs than other imports, starting 25-30 years ago. Australia has generally been ahead of the curve in reducing these, relative to most places.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by jussij on Saturday October 21, 2017 @02:55AM (#15520973)
And when compared to the 4+ billion the government forks out for the coal, oil and gas companies every year, it is nearly nothing:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-11/coal-oil-and-gas-compa...

http://reneweconomy.com.au/australian-fossil-fuel-subsidies-...

By comparison the car industry only received about 5 Billion over 10 years:

https://theconversation.com/factcheck-do-other-countries-sub...

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by jamhan on Saturday October 21, 2017 @03:14AM (#15521017)
I always find it amusing when people compare pork barrelling amounts as "only" or "mere". "It was only 5 billion". I wonder how many companies, schools, hospitals etc would like an extra 500 million dollars per year just for doing the job they should be already doing in a democratic capitalist society. How many people cried for IT workers in Australia when the 457s were imported en masse or Telstra, IBM etc out-sourced their IT to India? How much subsidy or compensation did the IT workers of Australia get for that? Australians complain about all the scams they get from Indian callers and conveniently forget that they only happen because Telstra gave overseas scammers a free trove of Australian consumer data and very little was done to stop it. Globalisation and cheaper prices come with huge hidden costs.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by jussij on Saturday October 21, 2017 @03:31AM (#15521046)
> I always find it amusing when people compare pork barrelling amounts as "only" or "mere". "It was only 5 billion".

It was 5 billion over ten years compared with nearly 5 billion each year.

When you do that comparisons it is a mere 5 billion.

Now I'm not arguing that governments should be propping up sectors with pork barrelling. That is something for the electorate to decide.

However, the current government always claimed they had to stop propping up the car industry, because governments should not be in the business of handing out subsidies.

That government statement is disingenuous and total hypocrisy, since they will not be removing those coal, oil and mining subsides any time soon.

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by jamhan on Saturday October 21, 2017 @04:35AM (#15521178)
Let's then not forget the 1 billion per year spent on keeping mothballed desalination plants operational, plants that talking heads like Tim Flannery got us into thanks to clueless Labor premiers.

Also: "Renewable energy sources such as wind and solar will receive subsidies of up to $2.8 billion a year up to 2030 to ensure Australia reaches its Renewable Energy Target, according to new research." [1]

1. http://www.afr.com/news/politics/renewable-energy-subsidies-...

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by vkou on Friday October 20, 2017 @06:08PM (#15519442)
So, without value-add industries, how will the economy of Australia function long-term? As an exporter of raw commodities? That has not worked out well... For pretty much every nation that's tried it.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by jpatokal on Friday October 20, 2017 @06:36PM (#15519568)
The service sector is pretty huge, particularly education and tourism.

I'm more concerned about what will happen when the long-running property bubble pops, because this is propping up huge swathes of the economy (construction, banking, etc) and a lot of people have made financially insane decisions as a result. Lots of people in their twenties holding multi-million property portfolios, where rental income doesn't even cover mortgage payments, because all you need to do is get on the "property ladder" and watch real estate prices go up 15% a year forever...

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by dalbasal on Friday October 20, 2017 @06:15PM (#15519473)
Works ok in Norway.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by vkou on Friday October 20, 2017 @06:38PM (#15519582)
How well is it working in Sub-Saharan Africa?

And, uh, Norway is diversifying its economy, instead of doubling-down on resource extraction. It's not actively de-industrializing.

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by l33tbro on Friday October 20, 2017 @07:38PM (#15519831)
I'm guessing that OP is referring to the publicly owned $1trn oil fund that the government has only recently dipped into. They're actually now claiming they're going to minimise withdrawals due to an increase in revenue (1).

Wish my own government here in Australia had the brains and chutzpah to do this a few years back. We've never been much cop when it comes to visionary economics (apart from, arguably, rum being our first legal currency).

(1) https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-02/norway-s-...

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by arkem on Friday October 20, 2017 @10:06PM (#15520316)
Maybe not on the same scale but there's the Australian Government Future Fund[1] which is a sovereign wealth fund founded in 2006.

It's about 10% of the size of Norway's so not especially impressive but it does exist.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Government_Future_F...

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by SturgeonsLaw on Friday October 20, 2017 @06:51PM (#15519644)
African nations have had a history of being pillaged from without and within, a comparison would be fairer among countries with similar governments and economic structures.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by adventured on Friday October 20, 2017 @07:08PM (#15519716)
Nearly all nations have a history of being pillaged or similar.

Half of Europe was bombed, butchered or destroyed 75 years ago, the other half was enslaved or otherwise ruled by dictators for a generation.

China was tortured by several of the colonial powers, the Japanese, and then Mao. It's the world's #2 economy today.

Japan was flattened and nuked. It's the world's #3 economy today.

Germany was destroyed, split in half, and impoverished on one half for two generations. It's the world's #4 economy today.

South Korea survived a horrific civil war and Japanese occupation. Starting from intense poverty just 50 years ago - $150 per capita GDP - it now has the world's #11 economy.

And so on.

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by dba7dba on Friday October 20, 2017 @10:45PM (#15520407)
Of those non-African nations you mentioned, it is absolutely astounding that South Korea not only escaped the abject poverty but has joined the top 10 or 15 in a lot of metrics used to measure a nation. In 64 years.

After the end of the Korean War 1950 - 53, South Korea was the absolute last on the planet in terms of GDP. Poorer than most of the poorer nations.

And remember the trauma of having gone through a conventional warfare that went up and down the peninsula about 4 time. Not some guerrilla warfare where a neighborhood here and there goes up in smoke but a good old WW1 style warfare of massive artillery barrages.

And before the Korean War, Korea was largely a place stuck in the 19th century, with no modern education or institutions to speak of.

In 64 years, they educated the population, built up basic economy, and than kept on advancing.

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by ekianjo on Saturday October 21, 2017 @03:38AM (#15521061)
You are severely distorting reality. Japan has only become powerful again after WW2 because of massive investments in the Japanese economy by the US when they were fighting the Korean war and then the Vietnam War. The Japanese economy grew tremendously ONLY because of that. And every Japanese is very well aware of that.

Same story in Western Germany; massive investments from the West to prevent them from turning to the Soviet block.

And so on. Don't oversimplify History.

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by tonyedgecombe on Saturday October 21, 2017 @03:31AM (#15521048)
Norway does seem to be exceptional in this regard.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by corn_dog on Friday October 20, 2017 @05:29PM (#15519231)
Yep, this has been a long time coming. I grew up in Adelaide, even in the late '80s the car industry was politically contentious, needing large tariff protection to be competitive with imports. AFAIK the wind-down has been slow and steady with no sudden surprises.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by megablast on Friday October 20, 2017 @06:14PM (#15519463)
I agree good riddance, but for a different reason. I hope we can start to move towards smart cities, and getting rid of cars. It is ridiculous the reliance on cars that people in cities have.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by stephenr on Friday October 20, 2017 @06:46PM (#15519612)
... have you ever been to Australia? It's a big fucking place with fuck all people (compared to a lot of the rest of the developed world). The solution to society's problems is not "all get rid of our cars and live in shoe boxes 1 minute walk away from each other".
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by ACow_Adonis on Saturday October 21, 2017 @02:28AM (#15520923)
You're both wrong and right :p

While the distances between the towns in Australia is massive, most of our population resides in a handful of urban coastal cities.

While car culture is historically dominant, the biggest cities are all seriously trending towards increased densification, and much of our substantial immigration over the past 2 decades had been from nations used to much denser living.

I leave open the question as to whether it is the answer to all societies problems, but it would be a brave man to proclaim that wasn't the way Australian cities and population hadn't been trending for the past 10 years, and we'll likely trend for at least the next 10.

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by stephenr on Saturday October 21, 2017 @03:59AM (#15521104)
most of Australia's population lives in the suburbs surrounding the city.

Public transport from the suburbs to anywhere but the city or somewhere directly on the way, is terrible.

Will we have better cars that are less polluting, safer, even self driving? Sure. Will we get rid of personal motorised transportation? No.

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by megablast on Saturday October 21, 2017 @09:29PM (#15524628)
Yeah, people here are ridiculously addicted to cars, even in inner city regions. Ridiculous.

> Will we have better cars that are less polluting, safer, even self driving?

Sure, whatever. Considering the huge amount of pollution that goes into just creating the car, it is silly to talk about less polluting. Safe? Yeah, that why the road toll is going up. Self driving? Can't come soon enough, since people are incapable of concentrating long enough and are too selfish to drive safely.

Private cars are a stupid idea, and have caused way more problems.

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by stephenr on Saturday October 21, 2017 @10:04PM (#15524750)
The road toll has been on a steady downward trend since the 70s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths...
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by ACow_Adonis on Saturday October 21, 2017 @05:34AM (#15521291)
Perhaps I am overly generous in assuming that anyone talking about getting rid of cars is partaking in rhetorical hyperbole, and moreso making the point that we might be moving away from 2-3 cars for every household in the burbs, and approaching/trending towards 1-2 overall.

I will add in addition to my above post, that our high property prices are additionally feeding an additional densification trend...

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by stephenr on Saturday October 21, 2017 @07:09AM (#15521463)
I don't know where you live but everywhere I've lived, it's been 1 maybe two cars per couple, or one car if the person is single. The only exception I've seen to this is if people own a motorbike too, but then it's usually 1 shared car for the couple and a motorbike each.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by ACow_Adonis on Saturday October 21, 2017 @07:27PM (#15524179)
Luckily the Australian census and statistics are quite targeted on these areas, so you can drill down to quite detailed area level analysis.

You can google for "Australian Census 2016 quick stats" and get this information for most places in Australia.

Where I currently live is very atypical for Aus, about 75% of households here have 1 or fewer cars, but I've lived pretty much up and down the entire east coast and have a relatively intimate knowledge of both this country and the collection of information on it.

As Russel Coight might say: "I've bend around this wide brown land, seen a thing or two..."

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by stephenr on Saturday October 21, 2017 @09:34PM (#15524645)
Thanks for the tip about the census I found this http://profile.id.com.au/australia/car-ownership

Looking at aust-wide and state by state, it's as I described, at most (in wa and tas) 18% with 3+ cars, but 60+% fall into 1 or 2 cars per household. The rest is no car and no answer.

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by ACow_Adonis on Sunday October 22, 2017 @04:01AM (#15525695)
Indeed, but it depends a bit on whether you feel the 2 car households should be grouped in with the 1 car households or the 3 car households.

For completeness, one also has to ask whether or why we measure or comment using the statistical concept of households or persons.

Using WA as an example, ~34% of households had 2 cars. We can say that ~56% of households responded that they had access to 2+ cars. We can also say that almost ~75% of households responded that they had with 2 or fewer cars.

However, if we want to come up with an idea of a "representative australia" (an arguably increasingly erroneous concept by the day), we have to realise that the distribution of "people" amongst households will not be uniform.

Indeed, there is likely a strong correlation between the number of people in a household and the number of cars in a household.

What this means is that although only 56% of "households" reported having 2+ cars, the number of "persons" who experience life in such a household is not proportionate to the number of households reporting each characteristic in the population.

Indeed, given that one stat is likely correlated with singles, students and dinks, and the later is likely correlated with early and extended families, you would likely find that on a population weighted basis, the 2-3 car households may need to be counted as some multiple of the single/no car households.

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by oculusthrift on Saturday October 21, 2017 @12:03PM (#15522277)
sounds like you live in a city with young people whereas if you are in a suburb it’s families with a bunch of cars. Both parents can have a car, and they can have a van and maybe they’ll have a car for their 16 year old kid.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by stephenr on Saturday October 21, 2017 @12:06PM (#15522291)
Doesn't sound like any Aussie suburb I've lived in.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by elementalest on Saturday October 21, 2017 @05:28AM (#15521276)
Yep, and try getting the government to pay the billions required to get public transport up to standard to be able to just provide adequate transport for the majority of people in those cities.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by _kyran on Saturday October 21, 2017 @12:53AM (#15520734)
If I'm not mistaken, the person that you're responding to is from Australia and lives in one of the cities where Ford closed their factory :)
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by megablast on Saturday October 21, 2017 @09:27PM (#15524618)
Yes, I have lived in Brisbane, Melbourne and now Sydney. All 3 cities could do with no cars.

But people here are too addicted to them, and couldn't even imagine going down to the shops without a car. And make lots of excuses about it, such as it is too far and too big.

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by stephenr on Saturday October 21, 2017 @09:43PM (#15524672)
Let's pick common ground. Define "Melbourne"? How far from the cbd before it's not Melbourne for you, because I know you can't be suggesting people in Frankston or pakenham don't need a car.

And from personal experience I can tell you that any argument of not needing a car goes out the window as soon as someone has kids. Discussion over. Unless you're volunteering to cart around all the shit parents take with them?

Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by bdamm on Friday October 20, 2017 @06:18PM (#15519488)
It's almost too obvious but... cars aren't going away, mate.
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by ferentchak on Friday October 20, 2017 @06:47PM (#15519619)
For example the v8 interceptor will outlive all those so called "smart cities"
Re:Australia Mourns the End of Its Car Manufacturing Industry by _kyran on Saturday October 21, 2017 @12:51AM (#15520725)
Not steel, but rather an Aluminium Smelter and Mill.

Also, just down the road its accompanying power plant/coal mine:

http://www.alcoa.com/australia/en/point-henry/default.asp