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Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by fourfaces on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:38AM (#15516592)
Materialism, theism and atheism are all religions.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by Tenobrus on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:47AM (#15516673)
You're using the fact that all are ideologies to attempt to smuggle in the connotations we have with "religion" and apply those to atheism and materialism. Examine those connotations directly and you'll see they don't sensically apply. For example: religion requires faith without evidence, materialism and atheism do not. Almost all religions make demands on the actions of their adherents, atheism almost by definition does not, except as in that as a category defined by lack of belief, those in that category won't believe in supernatural powers. There are legitimate semantic boundaries here, and attempting to blur them is only useful if you're trying to wage a war of connotation and emotion, not if you're trying to argue in good faith or build a good model of the world.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by dragonwriter on Friday October 20, 2017 @04:45PM (#15519003)
> For example: religion requires faith without evidence

No, it doesn't.

OTOH, it does require that “evidence” be understood more broadly than just empiricism.

> Almost all religions make demands on the actions of their adherents, atheism almost by definition does not

Specific atheisms often do, though atheism as such (like theism as such) does not.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by fourfaces on Friday October 20, 2017 @12:40PM (#15517140)
" religion requires faith without evidence, materialism and atheism do not."

This is dogma preached by materialists, of course. The fact is that opposites are of the same nature. Theism and its opposite, atheism, are both belief systems. Neither of them is scientific. Vociferous denials notwithstanding.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by root_axis on Friday October 20, 2017 @03:33PM (#15518578)
Atheism is not a belief system (and neither is theism for that matter) it is simply a description.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by ythn on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:52AM (#15516722)
> Almost all religions make demands on the actions of their adherents

This is a feature, not a bug? Otherwise what's the point?

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by Tenobrus on Friday October 20, 2017 @02:08PM (#15517891)
I'm not necessarily disparaging it, rather pointing out there are clear and legitimate features of the category "religion" that ideologies like atheism don't share.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by Simon_says on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:42AM (#15516624)
Atheism is a religion in the same way that not golfing is a sport.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by kirse on Friday October 20, 2017 @12:06PM (#15516870)
Quippy but untrue. "Not golfing" doesn't have news articles, blogs, apologetic tomes, influential figure-heads, social gatherings (online and offline), charitable organizations and all sorts of life and energy-consuming efforts dedicated to it.

Atheism is indeed the religion of man, who has set himself on his own throne, denied the existence of a Creator, and crowned himself god - deciding that HE will be the arbiter of right and wrong. The same forms of worship (investments of time, energy, money, etc) that can be devoted to the Divine are simply channeled inward in a self-righteous pursuit of independence.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by vidarh on Friday October 20, 2017 @12:23PM (#15517006)
This is way too simplistic.

Most organisations promoting atheism tends to explicitly associate with ideologies that sometimes pre-suppose atheism, but are not just atheism, such as humanism. E.g. the biggest "atheist" organizations in most countries tends to be the Humanist Associations.

To the extent that there are organizations etc. "just for atheism" rather than humanism, this tends to either be tied to ideologies that either encompass just small parts of atheists, e.g. "hard" atheists who express absolute certainty in the non-belief of God, or "radical" atheists who see theism as actively damaging and something to be fought. Those you could very well consider ideologies.

Another category are groups that band together not over atheism per se, but against religiously motivated discrimination, but most of these tends to focus on secularism, not atheism per se.

Calling atheism itself an ideology because of any of the above is ascribing far more to atheism than is actually there.

Saying that there are atheist ideologies where the absence of belief in a God is an important principle is true. But atheism on it's own is the simple absence of belief.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by astura on Friday October 20, 2017 @02:00PM (#15517835)
If people who didn't golf were considered subhuman and needing of "saving" then non golfers would develop a supportive community too.

Please don't confuse "community" with "religion." Bronies also have those things you mentioned but not a single person would classify being a Brony as a religion.

(If you aren't familiar with the term, a Brony is an adult or teenaged male fan of the children's show My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Little_Pony:_Friendship_Is_... )

Same with ideology, not all ideologies are religions. Believe that the Earth is flat is an ideology but not a religion even though personally having that ideology may be based on religious beliefs. Same with veganism.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by Y_Y on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:51AM (#15516709)
Some of the greatest sportspeople of our generation are not golfers.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by fourfaces on Friday October 20, 2017 @12:37PM (#15517120)
Nonsense. Both theism and atheism are belief systems. Neither is scientific.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by joexner on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:51AM (#15516704)
If you don't sweat playing it, it ain't a sport.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by Old_Thrashbarg on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:45AM (#15516654)
I'm not sure what the intention of choosing to define "religion" so as to include atheism, but it might be more productive to directly state what you are getting at.

When I google "religion", I get: "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."

It reminds me of when a friend once said, "World War II just happened", and I said, "Me tying my shoe just happened, World War II happened 70 years ago". It was both our faults for arguing about the definition of a word instead of both trying to understand each other. What my friend meant was that, since WWII, culture and education hasn't changed much, and another such disastrous event could happen again. Which is why I'm now asking you to rephrase your statement in a way I can understand your intent better.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by JoeDaDude on Friday October 20, 2017 @12:26PM (#15517029)
I don't disagree with you, but it should be made clear that the article is talking about people with no affiliation to a religion, and not (explicitly) atheism.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by fourfaces on Friday October 20, 2017 @12:34PM (#15517096)
"When I google "religion", I get: "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.""

Modern atheists came up with that definition. The fact is that opposites are of the same nature. Theism and its opposite, atheism, are both belief systems. Neither of them is scientific. At least, not yet.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by doornail on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:43AM (#15516629)
Yeah no. Is 'bald' a hair color? Is 'abstinence' a sexual position? Is 'not collecting stamps' a hobby?
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by Starwatcher2001 on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:43AM (#15516630)
I think not.

Religion: The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. [1]

Atheism: Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. [2]

[1] https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/religion [2] https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/atheism

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by Spivak on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:56AM (#15516760)
Quoting a dictionary in an argument is not just bad form but completely incorrect. An English dictionary is not an authoritative source for the meaning of words -- it's a record of the usage of words by English speakers and authors. It is a tool that helps a reader survey the possible meanings of the speaker or author. It does not define the meaning of a text.

You would do well to argue against the authors ideas rather than their words.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by mwerd on Friday October 20, 2017 @12:15PM (#15516955)
It can be helpful to enlighten an ignorant person though. Take the bastardization of the word "literally", or even "peruse" if you want a less inflammatory example. If one person uses the word in its original meaning and another interprets that word according to a colloquially bastardized version that essentially has the opposite meaning, I think it's entirely appropriate to quote a dictionary to the misinterpreter and incumbent upon them to interpret the word in its original meaning (if at all the intention is in question).

Bastardizing words, particularly those that have a prior established meaning to a minority community like atheists, is tyranny of the majority. It's not their fault that people don't know what atheist means and interpret the word incorrectly. If you reject that notion then I think you a) endorse a recursive loop where ignorant people never have to learn new vocabulary (or worse, get to make up definitions matching what they want to believe the other person is saying) and b) the bar to exchanging information gets set unreasonably high because speakers have to constantly define terms for their audience. There is some duty to learn and understand in a conversation. If you don't know what the words mean, look them up or don't get upset when corrected. That's how you have a conversation that progresses past semantics.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by majewsky on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:55AM (#15516743)
Since you're arguing with definitions, I feel it worthwhile to point out that these definitions do not necessarily contradict each other. Note the use of the word "especially".
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by robert_foss on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:40AM (#15516605)
No, that is a logical fallacy.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by uhtred on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:42AM (#15516619)
Theism refers to a belief in one or many Gods. But materialism and atheism are not religions.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by nether on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:43AM (#15516636)
They might be systems of belief. But they're not religions.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by phailhaus on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:41AM (#15516616)
a-theism literally means "lack of belief". Bald is not a hair color.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by sremani on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:43AM (#15516633)
The point he is making is Religion is replaced by Ideology. lets not reduce ourselves to "word-play".
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by vidarh on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:51AM (#15516703)
Atheism is not an ideology any more than your lack of belief in invisible pink unicorns is. It is the simple absence of belief.

Some atheists do have ideologies that are related to their atheism, many others do not.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by sremani on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:53AM (#15516730)
Agnostic is not an ideology, not caring whether there is a god or not is not an ideology.

Certainty of non-existence of God is Ideology.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by vidarh on Friday October 20, 2017 @12:12PM (#15516930)
> Certainty of non-existence of God is Ideology.

Maybe, but that's not what atheism means to most atheists.

Atheism is not believing in God(s). This is different from both saying "I don't know", like agnostics do and actively denying the possibility of existence in God.

Most of us, when we say "I don't believe in X" are not saying "I have absolute certainty that X does not exist". We're saying "I've not seen any reason to believe in X, so I don't". I'm not agnostic about the existence of Santa Claus - I don't believe in Santa Claus. But maybe there really is some guy living in some secret compound on the North Pole -- it is however so exceedingly unlikely that I'm not going to go around answering "I don't know" if someone ask.

Most atheists are "soft atheists" who fall in the category above, who if asked will say "God does not exist," but who if pushed will concede that just like I can't know for absolute certain that Russell's infamous teapot or Santa Claus doesn't exist, I can't absolutely rule out the existence of every conceivable definition of a God.

And this is not an ideology any more than the non-existence of Santa Claus is.

There are also "hard" atheists that insists that God 100% certainly does not, or can not, exist, and in those instances you might be right to call it an ideology. But they're a fringe - personally despite growing up among atheists I've never met one in person.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by 24gttghh on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:48AM (#15516674)
No the point GP is making is that atheism is a religion (it's not), which is in itself wordplay.

To try to stay on the subject of the article, I find it interesting that it's Protestants who are abandoning their faith which is most of the downward trend in the graphs presented. I find that makes sense as Protestants are generally less dogmatic and more questioning (at least historically they were from my understanding) than their Catholic brethren.

Another way to put it, I feel there are some structural differences between Protestants and Catholics which help to explain the downward trend in one, and less so in the other.

edits: bad grammar

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by lambdaphagy on Friday October 20, 2017 @02:48PM (#15518234)
Catholicism is a culturally "thicker" religion, which I suspect is responsible for the trend of lapsed Catholics continuing to describe themselves as Catholic in opinion polls even when effectively Nones. If you operationalized the definition, say by asking "have you been to church in the past week?" you'd probably see more similar trends.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by fourfaces on Friday October 20, 2017 @12:45PM (#15517179)
"a-theism literally means "lack of belief""

This is nonsense, of course. It shows a definite predilection among atheists to deceive themselves and others. Atheism is definitely a belief. But go ahead and believe otherwise, if you know what I mean.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by astura on Friday October 20, 2017 @02:27PM (#15518053)
"Everyone is just deceiving themselves and everyone else" is not a logical position to stand on.

I'll also point out this is a novelty account with negative karma.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by the-dude on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:42AM (#15516627)
It is a hair style.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by 24gttghh on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:46AM (#15516661)
Uh no it's a lack thereof.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by the-dude on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:52AM (#15516726)
I am sure you can have hair and still be considered bald.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by ceejayoz on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:52AM (#15516718)
No, it's a complete lack of hair.

Nudity is not a set of clothing.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by the-dude on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:55AM (#15516750)
See my other reply too, but let me ask : would you call Steve Ballmer bald or not?
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by ceejayoz on Friday October 20, 2017 @01:10PM (#15517387)
I'd call him mostly bald.

He's welcome to style what hair he has left.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by Spivak on Friday October 20, 2017 @12:00PM (#15516802)
I love word arguments. The empty set is still a set.

Nudity is wearing the empty set of clothing.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by lawlessone on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:40AM (#15516610)
When i pray to Amazon they deliver.
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by BOBOTWINSTON on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:57AM (#15516770)
Unlike Digiorno.

In all seriousness though Atheism is still a belief system. It makes an assertion without the necessary evidence to fully back it up (which is both true and weirdly ridiculous). On the other hand Agnosticism is in itself removed from a specific belief system. It is an epistemological doctrine of sorts with both religious and non-religious applications.

I find that most people use the word atheism completely wrong and accidentally get caught in stupid semantic debates they themselves are responsible for falling into. If you believe their is no god, then your making some pretty wild jumps.

If you don't think we have sufficient evidence to disprove a God, but would totally bet it all that there isn't, then you should just say your agnostic and explain how that applies if necessary.

Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by r00fus on Friday October 20, 2017 @02:26PM (#15518043)
It's a bit silly to argue against absolute atheism (belief in no god) when the article simply says the growing population don't believe in a god (and this - agnosticism - is conflated with atheism to the confusion of many and benefit of those who argue for religion).
Re:The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion by Simon_says on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:44AM (#15516641)
Wi-fi is my invisible power that surrounds me. Sometimes I ask it for guidance on things like what restaurants are open.