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Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by ChuckMcM on Thursday October 19, 2017 @04:44PM (#15511382)
If I am understanding your argument, it is a sort of 'thermodynamics' argument against UBI. It argues that there exists a fixed supply of capital and that transfer payments funded by taxes are always counter balanced by an increases in prices to keep capital supplies in balance.

If that isn't a correct interpretation of your argument, then the rest of this won't make a lot of sense.

The reason this sort of thermodynamics arguments fails for me is that the economy isn't really the amount of cash flowing through it, rather cash is a proxy for GDP not the economy itself. GDP is a function of productivity and effort. In simpler terms we can have our fictional worker 'Bob' who is anxious and fearful so he scrapes along with a minimum wage job that he hates, versus 'Alt-Bob' who is engaged and excited about his career and is building a future retirement nest egg. With the same 'worker population' of '1' we get two very different GDPs.

One theory is that UBI will make the anxious Bob less anxious and fearful and able to make better choices about their future. If you look at some of the work on how people who are anxious about the amount of money they have a hard time making good choices I refer you to the book 'Scarcity: Why having so little means so much.' it is a good read in general because it applies to anything, even 'free time' as a resource.

Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by gigs on Thursday October 19, 2017 @06:29PM (#15512089)
If the justification for this is rising housing costs, then giving people free money to pay the high rents is just going to cause housing to be even more expensive.

We've already tried this experiment. It's called financial aid for college. Tuition prices just keep tracking federal aid increases.

http://college.usatoday.com/2015/08/20/report-federal-aid-ri...

If they gave the money as credits to developers to build more housing, then they might have a chance at accomplishing their goal.

Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by dredmorbius on Thursday October 19, 2017 @11:01PM (#15513277)
That's why rent-producing goods are subject to rents taxation. See the land taxes suggested by Smith, Ricardo, and George.

Colleges and other shared-expense systems (see also: healthcare, military spending, public spending generally) present and pose other challenges, but they are not the same as the situation as applies to housing, specifically.

You don't give builders credits to build houses. You tax them for the potential revenues of a given quantity of land. Since land is nonfungible, the consequence is to both develop undeveloped lots, and to increase the density of utilisation of developed losts.

Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by rothbardrand on Friday October 20, 2017 @01:09PM (#15517384)
Taxes don't solve the problem, they increase it. If costs are too high, adding taxes only increases the cost more.

One can argue that taxation in all its forms, including inflation, is the singular cause of all poverty in the USA-- it is the largest most massive wealth transfer fro the masses to the rich ever. And I don't mean "rich don't pay enough taxes" I mean taxes are stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.

Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by dredmorbius on Friday October 20, 2017 @06:46PM (#15519613)
Not in the case of rents.

That's a key reason they're so markedly different from other goods.

Incidentally, your username and curiosity prompted me to check to see if Hazlitt's infamous little book makes any mention at all of either rents or monopoly. It doesn't.

I find that quite interesting.

https://www.mises.org/library/economics-one-lesson

Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by Tyrek on Thursday October 19, 2017 @06:42PM (#15512155)
No, it's an inflation argument against UBI. If everyone has more money, everyone becomes less sensitive to increases in prices, and therefore prices rise into the new equilibrium. (Increase in demand without a corresponding increase in supply leads to an increase in the price level, in intro microeconomics-ese). Now, the price level may not rise to the exact level where it cancels out the entire UBI, but that's based on various factors that are effectively unobservable.

It's not quite thermodynamics, because it's not as strict of a 'law', but it's close.

Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by erentz on Thursday October 19, 2017 @06:49PM (#15512207)
But that suggest prices are set by the available cash flow. Which means without other factors if we just lower everyone’s wages to zero everything will be free. Obviously this isn’t the case. Also it completely ignores supply and demand. Under UBI someone will raise their price to take more profit... but then no one will step in and compete because they see an ability to offer the product/service more efficiently.

Seems this inflation argument against UBI has obvious limits. Maybe it could cause some but it can’t be a linear relationship as people like the parent argue.

Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by donw on Thursday October 19, 2017 @07:56PM (#15512547)
Prices aren't set by one thing and one thing only, though.

Available cash flow definitely plays into the equation, and we can see this at work in a multitude of areas, from the skyrocketing cost of a university education, to the fact that ski resorts charge two or three times the going rate for a cup of hot chocolate (because if you have the money to go skiing, you have the money to pay extra for a hot beverage).

Costs also play a factor, of course. Dropping everybody's wages to zero doesn't mitigate the fact that raw materials, fuel, and even time are all finite resources.

Personally, while once a fan, I'm highly skeptical of UBI.

I would rather see something more like a universal assistance program: safe, government-run housing, dormitory style, with a cafeteria, available to all.

And I do mean "all". If Warren Buffet wants to bunk with Hobo Joe, that's his business. Buffet pays taxes that support the system, and shouldn't be barred from making use of it.

The people that live there are responsible for working to maintain the space: cleaning, cooking, etc. Put them near libraries and community centers, with ready access to whatever public transportation is available.

Unfortunately, given the current political climate, I doubt that this would go over well with either party.

Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by mattrices on Friday October 20, 2017 @11:57AM (#15516772)
The ski lodge and state college operate with a monopoly, once youre there you have no other choice of coco vendors. Cash flow has nothing to do with monopoly pricing.
Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by FooHentai on Thursday October 19, 2017 @07:06PM (#15512310)
>But that suggest prices are set by the available cash flow. Which means without other factors if we just lower everyone’s wages to zero everything will be free. Obviously this isn’t the case.

Prices can rise above cost, as long as someone will keep paying for it, But prices can only drop until the seller loses their incentive to sell, at which point the product/service will be withdrawn from sale.

Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by badestrand on Friday October 20, 2017 @02:59AM (#15513988)
I think you should think of UBI not as "everyone gets $X more" but rather a redistribution of income. The lower half of income earners will in sum receive more than currently while the upper half will have less due to higher taxes.
Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by Tyrek on Friday October 20, 2017 @10:30AM (#15516047)
Sure, but generally the top income earners aren't really in the same market as people with lower incomes. Sure there's indirect impacts, but the housing stock that they pursue is different, they eat at different places, probably shop at different grocery stores... the impact that this will have on their spending will be substantially more muted and difficult to measure in a model as compared to the impact of everyone at (lower income bracket) receiving an increase to their income.
Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by wav-part on Thursday October 19, 2017 @11:57PM (#15513464)
Alt-Bob will still be on min wage and still anxious and fearful due to inflation.

And why do you think Govts will do better job at identifying/investing in potential productivity than rest of the market ?

Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by Neeek on Friday October 20, 2017 @01:38AM (#15513723)
I know this isn't the whole picture, but doesn't a spike in inflation imply some kind of dilution of value? It's not as though the govt would be creating currency to fund this, it was collected from somewhere. Doesn't the idea that the price of everything will go up because some guy in a suit noticed that everyone has more money to spend, fall apart the second a competitor decides to keep their prices low?

Things like rent and certain utilities I can understand this might happen to but a mass devaluing of a currency just because the flow of money is routed a little different doesn't smell right to me.

Re:The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to S... by wtvanhest on Thursday October 19, 2017 @06:27PM (#15512079)
I think an easier way to think about the OP's point is that if you offer every person $1,000 a month (UBI), prices to live their exact same life style will increase by $1,000/month.

The net change will be zero.

There is an argument that while costs go up $1,000, if a true life changing event occurs, let's say sickness or entrepurship happen, maybe the person can scale down their life style from ramen to unflavored ramen and not be as bad off as with no UBI.