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Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by BFatts on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @03:43PM (#15502270)
Someone has to do the research and "Big" whatever seems to be the ones with the money to do so. So, what should we expect from them? They are going to look for research that is compelling to their business model, but as long as it's not wholly misleading, why is it bad? All research should be taken with a grain of salt.

I also have another question: Everyone in media is always looking for that story to break about "Big Business" doing something. Big Pharma, Big Chocolate, Big Auto... but what's the alternative? I doubt that mom and pop have the cash to do research. And I sure as hell won't trust any mom and pop research about pharmacology.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by trendia on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @03:48PM (#15502309)
Suppose that cocoa does not have direct effects on health. Recruit 60 people, give 30 of them cocoa and 30 of them placebo.

Due to random chance, you'll sometimes get positive results, and sometimes get negative results. If all of those studies are published, then there isn't a huge problem -- a metastudy would show that on average cocoa doesn't affect health.

But instead, support that only the positive studies are published. A third party reviewing the relevant literature will assume that all studies conducted showed a positive result, when in fact they were only the studies that were published.

This is the problem with having sponsored research: the research itself can be done properly, but a bias in publishing can give an inaccurate view of the true science at hand.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by carbocation on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:02PM (#15502440)
Yours is a good description of publication bias. I think it's worth mentioning that funnel plots can give you a visual sense of whether there is publication bias, and tools such as Egger regression can help to try to tease out a less biased estimate in the face of publication bias.
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by rhizome on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @03:50PM (#15502330)
Someone has to do the research and "Big" whatever seems to be the ones with the money to do so.

Ask yourself why this is so. Could it have to do with a reduction in public investment in original research, or, alternatively, an overall reduction in investment in unencumbered research?

Point being: this work used to get done by non-corporate scientists, too.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by emodendroket on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @03:49PM (#15502318)
If only there were some sort of organization that was not driven by profit and had the ability to allocate the entire society's resources toward the common good.

And incidentally I'd say a big part of the problem is that the research is totally misleading.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by njarboe on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @05:28PM (#15503316)
Any organization that has come close to "the ability to allocate the entire society's resources toward the common good" have created societies of great suffering and desperation so far. Maybe some super-intelligent computer system could do better?
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by emodendroket on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @06:08PM (#15503671)
That's just a more efficient way to propagate the preferences of whoever gets to control the computer system.
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by njarboe on Thursday October 19, 2017 @09:11PM (#15512873)
The computer would just be set to maximize the "common good", of course.
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by emodendroket on Thursday October 19, 2017 @10:30PM (#15513162)
As defined by whom?
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by njarboe on Friday October 20, 2017 @01:03PM (#15517345)
That is the hard part, isn't it? The previous statements were a bit tongue-in-cheek, but also serious.
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by Mz on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @06:23PM (#15503779)
but what's the alternative? I doubt that mom and pop have the cash to do research. And I sure as hell won't trust any mom and pop research about pharmacology.

You basically just answered your own question. You hate it when Big (Whatever) does the research, but you are actually more distrusting of a small operation.

I have spent a lot of years getting myself healthier. I have gone through something like 5 iterations of a health blog to try to talk about that and share information completely for free with people who desperately need a better answer than society is giving them currently.

I kept redoing the blog in part because it was such a total and complete shit show. I got all kinds of open hatred from people for trying to say "X, y and z were helpful for me. I think thus and such is why. Here is supporting research I found that fits with my experience." and making that information available absolutely for free.

I don't know an answer for you. But maybe think about how you are part of the problem here. Ask yourself: What would it take for you to trust a small operation? You are simply dismissing them out of hand. What if a small operation could be useful? What would they need to do to be useful and get taken seriously?

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by fenwick67 on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @03:58PM (#15502399)
> "All research should be taken with a grain of salt"

It's hard for any one person to read tens or hundreds of papers on a subject and critically examine them for fallacies, look for fake data, etc. It's just not plausible.

At this rate, if us commonfolk are just expected to take a default position of not believing a scientific study or consensus until we personally vet them, what are we to actually believe? Do I need to go out and personally vet that evolution is real by personally reproducing some fruit fly studies?

We're heading down a scary road if we cannot trust our scientific institutions to be unbiased.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by arcbyte on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:15PM (#15502538)
It's a scary road if everyone is just blanket assuming their sources of information are correct. We're living it.

There are NO institutions WHATSOEVER that we should trust.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by Retric on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:19PM (#15502575)
My suggestion is to ignore anything that's not a meta study.

Material science puts out thousands of papers a year, and ignoring them is easy because I lack context to understand them. IMO, the same is true of any field without a lot of study and literature review.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by asdfasfhretwt on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:23PM (#15502628)
Government funding, universities and charitable foundations are the traditional model for research.
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by denzil_correa on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:01PM (#15502432)
> All research should be taken with a grain of salt.

The very fact of science is that you can take the same experiment and under the said assumptions; you can repeat the same experiment yourself and come to similar conclusions as the one done by the original scientists.

> I doubt that mom and pop have the cash to do research. And I sure as hell won't trust any mom and pop research about pharmacology.

AD Hominem fallacy - the status of someone has no relation to the outcome of a scientific experiment.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by gaius on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:42PM (#15502820)
The very fact of science is that you can take the same experiment and under the said assumptions; you can repeat the same experiment yourself and come to similar conclusions as the one done by the original scientists

Except that you can't: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39054778

Science is facing a "reproducibility crisis" where more than two-thirds of researchers have tried and failed to reproduce another scientist's experiments, research suggests

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by alexanderstears on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:20PM (#15502594)
AD Hominem fallacy - the status of someone has no relation to the outcome of a scientific experiment.

That's not what the parent comment is arguing. The parent comment points out that research is expensive and not available equally to all groups.

The status of mom and pop doesn't effect the outcome of their research. Mom and pop weighing R&D against making their mortgage that month usually means they don't invest much in research.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by denzil_correa on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:30PM (#15502711)
The grand parent comment does venture in that territory the moment the commentator says this

> And I sure as hell won't trust any mom and pop research about pharmacology.

Regardless of Mom and Pop store investments, the outcome of scientific experiments don't depend on who does the experiments.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by alexanderstears on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @05:19PM (#15503227)
I'll give the grand parent that benefit of the doubt - pharmacology research is expensive, there's a reason that most of the companies who develop pharmaceuticals have multi-billion dollar market caps.
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by asdfasfhretwt on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:26PM (#15502656)
If only there was a way that millions of mops and pops could club together to fund research into areas that might benefit them all...
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by alexanderstears on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @05:22PM (#15503255)
If there were a way we'd surely see them opt-into that arrangement.
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by asdfasfhretwt on Thursday October 19, 2017 @02:55PM (#15510591)
Many do via donations to charities.
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by bllguo on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:16PM (#15502549)
It has a relation to the ability of someone to actually conduct an experiment... Larger groups have more resources, from knowledge to experience to money.

It is not an ad hominem fallacy. I don't know how you twisted his meaning to come to that conclusion.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by athenot on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:22PM (#15502606)
Louis Pasteur and Pierre & Marie Curie fit the description of "mom and pop research", as compared to today's labs, yet their findings are still valid.
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by Broken_Hippo on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:36PM (#15502764)
That level is still somewhat prohibitive for a lot of folks. Schooling alone can cost quite a bit, and without this a lot of places won't take you seriously regardless of your self-study. This aspect alone makes the person unable to reach Pasteur or Curie's "mom and pop research" level.

Not to mention supplies. I worked as a lab assistant for a dude studying the effects of zebra mussels in closed freshwater lake systems in Indiana (dams and whatnot, where the mussel would need to have been introduced to the lake). Microscopes capable of counting the young, ventilation hoods (for preservation chemicals), scales, and methods of disposing of biowaste from the traps for adults? Yeah, that's even more - and this dude had a pretty low budget. What he did have was the time to put into the research which is yet another thing that alludes folks. Some fields of study really needs better equipment than we were using - plus it has been 20 years since then.

It isn't that the low-budget stuff or the "mom and pop research" is less valid or not good enough. It is that even that level is cost-prohibitive.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by selectodude on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @06:39PM (#15503889)
Marie Curie died of acute radiation poisoning, so I guess it's just a matter of how little you're worried about the effects of what you're working with. :)
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by Broken_Hippo on Thursday October 19, 2017 @12:08PM (#15509122)
Well, that really depends on whether or not you know the effects of what you are working with. It is really easy to be careless with such things when folks don't really know the effects. Even when she died, she didn't say much about the radiation effects.

Heck, we used xrays to fit shoes on people long after she died.[1] I'm sure part of that was humans being slow to regulate it, but still.

Knowing that x or y substance is dangerous brings a different perspective, I think. By the time I worked with formaldehyde, we knew we needed some precautions. I also think it is wise to consider age and mental capacity: IF someone isn't old enough to have full adult rights (including drinking, warring, and renting cars) they probably shouldn't be able to decide to not be careful. But then again, by the time one is educated to today's standards, they are old enough.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by Sharlin on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:31PM (#15502721)
That was then, now is now. There are few low-hanging fruits left these days. Especially in a field where showing any effect practically requires a sample size of dozens to hundreds and an observation period of years to decades.
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by denzil_correa on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:32PM (#15502728)
> I don't know how you twisted his meaning to come to that conclusion.

Because the comment also mentioned this

> And I sure as hell won't trust any mom and pop research about pharmacology.

The comment essentially means that peer reviewed scientific experimental results from mom & pop are untrustworthy over big companies.

Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by ianai on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @03:47PM (#15502296)
The only alternative is public funding.
Re:The Mars company has sponsored hundreds of studies to sho... by drak0n1c on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @03:48PM (#15502312)
Just like how "big business" has a motivation to fund certain types of research, people in media have ideological and business motivations for only investigating certain types of organizations and people.