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Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by liotier on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @05:24AM (#15489633)
> What benefit does the stock market provide to us ?

Direct benefit: liquidity - whether you need to buy or to sell, you have a place where you'll find a counterpart quickly.

Indirect benefit: information - just watching the bets lets you have an idea about how much people with skin in the game value things, letting you take better decisions about resources allocation.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by cm2187 on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @06:19AM (#15489832)
And the benefit of liquidity is to reduce your risk. If you change your mind, need some cash quickly, or even simply want to know what the market thinks your stock is worth, you need liquidity. If you don't have observable and executable prices, you may struggle to find a buyer for that stock when you need it (delaying a home purchase or exposing you to future changes in market sentiment / health of the company) and will have no idea who to trust to tell you how much you should ask when you sell your position.
Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by marak830 on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @06:29AM (#15489868)
Liquidity, I'm sorry didn't you invest in that company? If you can find a buyer for that percentage, okay cool, but nothing about investing should revolve around if you need liquidity all of a sudden.
Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by dagw on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @06:46AM (#15489930)
nothing about investing should revolve around if you need liquidity

The knowledge that I can get out of my investment any time I want at the current market price makes me much more willing to invest in the first place. If I know that it can take several month to get out of an investment or that I have to sell at a discount to get a fast deal then I'm more likely to sit on more of my money in case I need it quickly.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by Retric on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @07:47AM (#15490166)
In theory that's a big deal. In practice most people are looking at days to weeks to liquidate stock and that's not a big deal. As your holdings go up, into the billions, it can take months to years to unwind major investments without tanking the price. Further, having ~six months of living expenses outside of the market is considered prudent anyway.

However, the reality is if the market disappeared today informal markets would quickly take it's place consider what happens to pre IPO stock.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by auxym on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:09AM (#15490245)
Months to years to liquidate stock? For most people?

I can't imagine selling a position would have any influence on price until it's a significant percentage of the market cap. The median cap of the Russell 2000 (an american small cap index) is 809 M [0].

Do most people really have multi-million positions in a single small cap company?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_2000_Index

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by Retric on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:18AM (#15490293)
No not most people. But, if you own 60% of a company it can take a long time to unwind without impacting the price. Further the transion is smooth as selling 1 million in most stocks in a second would change the price.

Anyway, my point is simply that trades are the mechanism that changes price. So, you can't expect to sell arbitrary amounts of stock at the current clearing price.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by dagw on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:24AM (#15490330)
How many people own 60% of a publicly traded company?
Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by Retric on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @09:17AM (#15490625)
Worldwide probability less than 20. But again that's just the extreme that demonstrates what's gong on. If you ever watch a stock ticker and calculate the volume of sales needed to change the price it's less than most people assume.

+/- a few cents might not seem like much but drops can spiral with relatively small initial sales.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by Retric on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @12:02PM (#15492044)
PS: While this topic seems to annoy people I suggest you look up 'off-board' trading before dismissing the idea. EX: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB860538568435594500

The reality is the current ticker price is only meaningful up to mid sized transactions.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by dagw on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:24AM (#15490326)
Even if liquidity in the stock market doesn't matter to you personally, it also allows for others build new 'products' on top of it that you might benefit from. ETFs and Index funds, for example, provide far more benefits to the average investor than access to a liquid stock market. However they wouldn't really exists in their current form (or at the very least be a lot more expensive) without a liquid marked underneath them.
Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by matwood on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:06AM (#15490233)
I hope one to one day have enough wealth that it takes months to liquidate my stocks. The number that can’t be liquidated almost instantly is very large.

Additionally, IPOs are almost priced incorrrectly, and show the problems with the informal market.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by Retric on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:22AM (#15490309)
I would not nessisarily say they are priced incorrectly, there is a liquidity premium. Also, post IPO there is often a tiny slice of the company on the market combined with a lot of speculation.
Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by wbl on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @11:02AM (#15491491)
IPO pricing is deliberate on the part of investment banks to reward some customers.
Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by cm2187 on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @11:43AM (#15491876)
Actually probably more to ensure that the IPO doesn't fail, i.e. that there is sufficient demand.
Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by charlesdm on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @07:16AM (#15490046)
You clearly haven't invested much then. Investing in the public markets is different to investing in private equity -- the former is generally highly liquid, the latter illiquid.

Illiquid investments need to generate higher returns to make up for the fact they're illiquid, in comparison to liquid ones.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by marak830 on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @06:20AM (#15489838)
The direct I can understand, I want to sell a portion of my business on the bote that I will give that direct portion profit to the holder.

How would any of the other trading help my business, or anyone else?

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by sokoloff on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:53AM (#15490489)
Same reason that a $100 bill is worth more than a $100 gift card to a specific store.

The presence of the secondary market makes the initial offering (sales) of shares easier.

Imagine company A is making a primary offering (direct sales of shares from the company to an investor), but that those shares do not have a ready secondary market.

Imagine company B is making the same primary offering, but there is a deeply liquid secondary market.

Company A and Company B are otherwise identical (line of business, revenue, profit, outlook for the future, etc). Investors will much more readily invest in company B.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by liotier on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:42AM (#15490411)
Liquidity is correlated to trading volumes - so the more people exchange shares of your company, the quicker you can find a counterpart. Investors accept lower returns if they can get their money back whenever they please, so a liquid investment vehicle is advantaged.

Ceteris paribus, volatility is negatively correlated to trading volumes: if your shares are only exchanged twice a week (actual trading volumes for a small company on some exotic exchange) the price variations will inevitably happen in large steps, which does not reassure investors. And if the company is not publicly traded, who knows what the price of the next transaction will be ?

A lively market for an investment vehicle opens the possibility of derivatives, which are valuable to investors interested in the company but whose appetite for risk is limited. So if your company's shares trade has derivatives, it makes them more attractive.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by eru on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:53AM (#15490490)
The possibility of that trading induces your first buyer to give you a higher price as the first seller.

(Similar to how money or even bitcoin is only useful if you can pass it on.)

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by marak830 on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @06:36AM (#15489892)
Direct: I can understand.

Indirect: that seems like a losing game. Why would gambling on a companies future ever help anyone(except the lucky?).

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by technofire on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @07:55AM (#15490191)
> Why would gambling on a companies future ever help anyone

Most transactions in the market are not gambling. Trades happen, yes, but that is because the prospects of companies are continually changing. When it became apparent pretty much everyone would move to Netflix and streaming video, would you want to continue holding Blockbuster stock? No; you would want to sell it.

People who simply "gamble" in the market lose money about as often as they gain it, and soon stop. Hedge funds and mutual funds generally try to invest in shares on a longer-term basis rather than continually trading them; trading incurs transaction costs, and if an investment was correct and is generating better-than-benchmark returns there is no reason to sell it.

The "day trading" books you might see at your local Barnes and Noble are get-rich-quick books and are not representative of the actual professional investment industry.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by eru on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:56AM (#15490503)
> [...] would you want to continue holding Blockbuster stock? No; you would want to sell it.

For every seller, there's a buyer. The market will settle on a price at which those are evenly matched---even if that's close to zero.

You have to offer a good enough price on your Blockbuster stock to find a buyer who thinks it's a good idea. (Unless it's someone who has to cover a short position, those guys are basically forced to buy. But they'll still buy from the seller with the best price.)

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by lmm on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @07:56AM (#15490194)
> Why would gambling on a companies future ever help anyone(except the lucky?).

Prediction markets are the most efficient way to make societal decisions; they allow everyone to combine their information and predictions without having to directly coordinate with each other. There's academic literature arguing they'd be the best way to do politics etc. At the moment all we do with them is capital allocation, but that has real-world effects: ultimately the idea is to give more money to companies that can use it better (so that they then e.g. build more factories, hire more people, make relevant buyouts) and less money to companies that will make less good use of it.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by gjulianm on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:38AM (#15490397)
Sorry but I have to make the precision: market optimized for monetary output and not necesarily social good. Companies doing well in the stock market might be exploiting workers, unnecessarily exposing consumers to different dangers, destroying the environment or a plethora of any other bad things and the stock market would not care as long as it does not create a PR problem that could affect sales of the company.

Similarly, a company that does well socially (e.g, a public hospital) but not economically would get obliterated in the stock market.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by liotier on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @09:02AM (#15490533)
> Companies doing well in the stock market might be exploiting workers, unnecessarily exposing consumers to different dangers, destroying the environment or a plethora of any other bad things and the stock market would not care

That would be regulatory failure - it is not the market's fault if the government is weak... Fix the government, get decent labor laws, let companies internalize externalities, regulate environmental impact !

> Similarly, a company that does well socially (e.g, a public hospital) but not economically would get obliterated in the stock market

Which is why, in civilized countries, public services are provided by the government or on behalf of the government.

Foisting government responsibilities upon the market is bound to create disappointment...

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by dkrich on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @09:58AM (#15490906)
I can understand your point. We are so many layers removed these days with trading platforms and online brokerages that it's easy to forget that when you buy an equity, you are actually holding shares of a real company that produces real products, employs real people, and maybe most importantly, holds real assets. One of these assets is future cash flows and this is pretty much where the value of shares in a company come from.

In any moment it seems like you're just buying thin air for money and selling that air later for (hopefully) more money. But that's the short-term view of it. In the long run you are taking a stake in a company that you hope as a whole will be worth more in the future than it is today. That stake gives you legal right of ownership to a percentage of that company and its cashflows. If it's a dividend paying company you collect regular profits from it as well.

Re:The Crash of ’87, from the Wall Street Players Who Lived It by wskinner on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @06:44AM (#15489920)
Markets aggregate information in a (usually) efficient way. Information is useful to different people in different ways. Just to take one example, if the stock price of a company falls and stays low for a whole, that could reflect some negative future prospects for the company, which traders know about. That could affect my decision to move across the country to work for that company. That is valuable to me. Since you asked for a source, I’ll give you one: pick up any introductory economics textbook.