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Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by wyager on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:38AM (#15483054)
The USD is probably the most well-behaved fiat currency of the last century, so that’s basically the least interesting example, but:

USD is inflationary. Ceteris paribus, a rational actor would generally prefer to hold something deflationary. The (epsilon-) no-arbitrage argument suggests that the frequently raised “but then no one will ever invest in things” objection doesn’t actually make any sense.

USD is highly controlled (but not by you). This is a technical and legal issue, not a fundamental problem with fiat currencies in general, but it’s impossible to ignore. Bitcoin sidesteps it entirely. What actually drove me to try Bitcoin is when a paperwork error by the state comptroller led to them withdrawing several thousand dollars from my bank account with no warning. I eventually got it back when they realized they made a mistake, but Wells Fargo still charged me “legal fees” and the realization that I really didn’t have control over my money was uncomfortable. With bitcoin I can use my money however I want, whenever I want, and no one else can. No paperwork, no ACH/fed clearing, no delays, no surprise fees, no one stealing money out of my account with impunity. That’s only the tip of the iceberg for how much the legacy financial system sucks, and most of it can’t be fixed with a software upgrade.

Fiat could theoretically work as well as bitcoin in terms of convenience and reliability, but it never does in practice and there’s no way to avoid governments instituting worse policies later on.

I also don’t think most Bitcoin supporters want the government to get rid of USD. It’s about adding choice, not forcing everyone to do something different.

Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by subroutine on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:34AM (#15483439)
It's difficult to evaluate whether crypto would have mitigated your situation without knowing the details. Why were you charged legal fees by Wells Fargo?

Do you think the state comptroller could not seize your cryptocoin assets if you refuse to pay your taxes?

I'm with you, reasonable Bitcoin supporters should not want to get rid of USD. I personally think of Bitcoin like having a Paypal account, except less businesses accept it, and after dinner when we get the check none of my friends have ever said "hey do you have the bitcoin app on your phone". Maybe that will change soon.

Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by krupan on Monday October 16, 2017 @12:20PM (#15484362)
"Do you think the state comptroller could not seize your cryptocoin assets if you refuse to pay your taxes?"

Not by simply helping themselves to my account. They'd have to, like, talk to me first, possibly even use Due Process. That's a huge improvement.

Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by hn_throw_1234 on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:48AM (#15483537)
> USD is inflationary. Ceteris paribus, a rational actor would generally prefer to hold something deflationary. The (epsilon-) no-arbitrage argument suggests that the frequently raised “but then no one will ever invest in things” objection doesn’t actually make any sense.

This is only true for savers and the vast majority of Americans, likely the world, are debtors (source: http://time.com/money/4709270/americans-die-in-debt/).

Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by wyager on Monday October 16, 2017 @02:59PM (#15485761)
Interest rates would be lower with bitcoin. Again, consider this from the no-arbitrage angle. If interest rates weren’t correspondingly lower for loans denominated in deflationary assets, there would be an obvious and low-overhead arbitrage opportunity. So debtors don’t actually gain anything unless the loan is fixed-rate and the inflation rate increases.
Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by hn_throw_1234 on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @01:11AM (#15488824)
I can't see how the no arbitrage hypothesis applies here. You're talking about different currencies. No arbitrage doesn't mean that whatever you do to the world won't change anything.

That said, you're probably right that interest rates would be lower since the demand for debt would go down since Bitcoin is deflationary but then again that goes against what you stated in the first place.

Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by wyager on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @09:36AM (#15490744)
Arbitrage opportunity if bitcoin and USD interest rates are the same, but the EV of holding a bitcoin is higher than holding a dollar: borrow dollars, buy bitcoins, loan bitcoins at current rate, sell bitcoins at repayment, your returns are equal to interest returns plus deflation returns, sell bitcoin, pay back dollar loan. Your profit is equal to the deflationary increase in bitcoin. Bread and butter arbitrage. Financiers would keep doing this until bitcoin loans are lower interest rate enough that this doesn’t make sense.
Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by PKop on Monday October 16, 2017 @12:38PM (#15484517)
How’s that been working out? If only saving was incentivized. Bitcoin true believers have a positive view of increasing savings
Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by hn_throw_1234 on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @01:17AM (#15488842)
Pretty well actually. There may be too much debt but debt is clearly a good thing.

Also don't forget if you want to save, to earn interest means you need to lend so at the end of the day you're going to need debtors.

Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by PKop on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @11:52AM (#15491965)
Not with a finite currency. Hodling in your own possession gives you a "return".

And even with some sort of smart contract placing your Bitcoin on deposit (payment channels might achieve this. Committing your Bitcoin to a channel and charging market rate fees), there's no fractional reserve banking so at least credit/money supply swings won't be so drastic and we can avoid the volatility in the business cycle we experience with fiat currencies.

Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by pjc50 on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:41AM (#15483086)
> paperwork error by the state comptroller led to them withdrawing several thousand dollars from my bank account with no warning

It's a good job that the computer you store your bitcoin on never has any security issues.

Re:Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf] by beingmyself2 on Monday October 16, 2017 @12:46PM (#15484630)
You can go to great lengths to secure your own Bitcoin private key, you have data sovereignty. The same cannot be said about your own bank account.