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Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by EvanAnderson on Friday October 13, 2017 @09:02AM (#15465185)
I'm of the opinion that products which require a separate service to perform their advertised functions (i.e. a "cloud" service-- be it "free" with the product or subscription-based) should be clearly labeled as such. I know that I don't actually own anything that I can't self-host (or pay whoever I want to host it), but it's clear that most people don't. Public education on this front seems valuable to me (but, then, I'm one of those crazy people who believes in standards-based protocols and commodity hosting service).
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by 0xcde4c3db on Friday October 13, 2017 @09:14AM (#15465280)
Yes. A couple years ago I bought a network-attached hard drive with some kind of cloud backup service bundled (the current marketing-speak seems to be "personal cloud"); fortunately I did a little extra reading before opening it, because it wouldn't even let you set it up for local access without registering an account on the cloud service.
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by downer72 on Friday October 13, 2017 @09:23AM (#15465348)
For sure, that’s what killed the Pebble watch for me.

I got it home, opened the box, thinking I had a new watch!

Nope. You have to connect it to the internet and let it phone home first. It would not tell time, permit you to manually set the time, or let you explore that watch at all, until it spoke with it’s mothership.

I put it back in the box, and tossed it in the closet, and it’s still there, and now it’s completely unusable because the company collapsed.

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by 24gttghh on Friday October 13, 2017 @09:33AM (#15465448)
Technically it is still usable, with an update that allows the watch to be de-tethered from the old Pebble servers[0], and there is an open-sourced version in active development as of this Spring[1].

[0]https://developer.pebble.com/blog/2017/04/04/transitioning-u...

[1]https://rebble.io/

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by teekert on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:44AM (#15466648)
What a waste! Here in the EU you have 8 days to sent it back without any reason. That is a nice rule for this type of nonsense.
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by def_true_false on Saturday October 14, 2017 @09:38AM (#15472113)
Wasn't it 14 days? And it only applies to online shopping (supposedly to compensate for losing the ability to see/try things before buying them)...
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by oneweekwonder on Friday October 13, 2017 @10:03AM (#15465737)
If it is in a mint condition with boxing, hold on to it, in a decade or so I believe it would be worth a lot.
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by TeMPOraL on Friday October 13, 2017 @02:08PM (#15467961)
In a decade the hardware may fail (yay today's manufacturing practices). But in 2-3 years, most Pebble fans will probably have broken their current watch, and will be desperately looking for replacement. Since among smartwatches, Pebble was the single least shitty option (by a wide margin) and no company is stepping up with a comparable alternative, people might pay good money to get a working one. I know I probably will.
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by 24gttghh on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:33AM (#15466569)
As long as it isn't the Pebble Time Round, and the battery doesn't swell and require replacement...
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by npsimons on Friday October 13, 2017 @09:34AM (#15465454)
> I'm one of those crazy people who believes in standards-based protocols and commodity hosting service).

If that counts as crazy, then lock me up, because I'm crazy too. I'll second everything you said, but I'm not so sure it's entirely ignorance - I believe a large number of people just don't care (which is ignorance of another kind).

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by EvanAnderson on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:03PM (#15466787)
They don't know to care. That's why I think we need public education. As companies who make these "IoT" devices go bust and the various Internet-enabled cloud widgets the general public has purchased turn into bricks people will get an "education" of a sort.
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by oneweekwonder on Friday October 13, 2017 @10:13AM (#15465830)
> standards-based protocols

Ok seeing we talking IoT what standard: of the top of my head mqtt, coap, http/rest, soap? Those are just communication protocols. Now we still need to standardize the application data layer jsonschema, swagger/openapi, wsdl? and most of the time the vendor wants to own the application for their benefit. Also the classic xkcd of standards leading to more standards is so true.

As you mentioned the problem lies with the general public, don't care attitude. Hopefully there is enough that will try to educate and help their peers.

But a lot of us is going to learn the hard way how criminals used our iot devices against us to rob us blind and only then change will truly start to take place.

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by throw2016 on Friday October 13, 2017 @10:38AM (#15466058)
This self serving 'general public don't care' argument by software folks is becoming tired and cliched.

The general public doesn't care about freedom of press. Let's take that away. The general public doesn't care about elections. Let's take that away.

People use these self serving assumptions of ignorance to empower themselves. You have a ton of devices and things you use in your everyday life. Why should a doctor or civil engineer need to understand the details of software and hardware technologies to get value from it? Do all software folks understand the details of medical stuff or their home construction?

That's why you need regulations, so vague terms like the 'general public don't care' are not used to abuse them.

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by npsimons on Friday October 13, 2017 @10:50AM (#15466193)
> That's why you need standards, so vague terms like the 'general public don't care' are not used to abuse them.

I wouldn't argue so much for standards of technology, as for standards of conduct. It's funny you mention doctors and civil engineers, two professions with high ethical standards precisely because they went through the same painful growth the software industry is going through now.

The 'general public', quite frankly, is ignorant about a great many things. And let's be honest: it is very rare indeed to be the kind of person with the aptitude, time and willingness to become a polymath to the point that you'll never be scammed in any field, ever. It is incumbent upon us, the knowledgeable and ethical practicioners of our field, to hold not just ourselves, but our whole industry to a higher standard. Thus, discussions such as this one on HN where we point out that IoT devices could cause a world of hurt because of all the make-a-quick-buck hucksters who couldn't be arsed to do due diligience.

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by TeMPOraL on Friday October 13, 2017 @02:17PM (#15468051)
> two professions with high ethical standards precisely because they went through the same painful growth the software industry is going through now.

High ethical standards enforced by a court of your peer professionals, who can ruin your career if you break the code of conduct. The last part is, unfortunately, crucial, because ethics can quickly go out of the window when people face monetary pressures.

> It is incumbent upon us, the knowledgeable and ethical practicioners of our field, to hold not just ourselves, but our whole industry to a higher standard. Thus, discussions such as this one on HN where we point out that IoT devices could cause a world of hurt because of all the make-a-quick-buck hucksters who couldn't be arsed to do due diligience.

I strongly agree. And I feel there should be loud naming and shaming of companies with anti-consumer practices like these.

One thing I feel we can teach the general public, though, is the distrust towards the cloud and SaaS model. IoT devices can, and should, communicate point-to-point or in your LAN. If a device needs an Internet connection to work and doesn't have a damn good reason for that, one should avoid it.

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by FabHK on Friday October 13, 2017 @10:08AM (#15465784)
Yes. There's this doorbell (400-1500 USD) that connects via internet to a central host, and then notifies you on your smartphone. Seems sort of a neat idea, but a house lasts several decades - is that startup and its server going to be around that long?

http://www.doorbird.com

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by 659087 on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:05PM (#15466806)
It also notifies that central host every time someone visits your home, and provides them with video and audio of that person. That doesn't seem like a "neat idea" at all.

"By visiting my front door, you agree to Doorbird's privacy policy"

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by tripletmass on Thursday October 19, 2017 @10:29PM (#15513160)
The doorbell for Serial Criminals who Sell Out to Federal Agents and/or Cartels. (...near you!) etc.

Speaking of planned obsolesence, it would be nice to be able to take a working 40yo. fixed camera and tell it it's a barcode reader and scheduled wildlife counter, or otherwise to take a power profile change, if not also distinct (llvm, CoolWave, Bluetooth 4.1 profile) promise or callback schema. Maybe tell the shakeweight that you're putting it in the closet in a manner than shaking is no excuse to dissipate more than 21mW. Certainly get (MSDS-ish # circumstance) links from devices that deal in goober or tree nut oils or PVC with flame retardant adjuvants, etc. maybe or maybe not explicitly asking things to McGuyver themselves into a bootstrap industry they don't belong to.

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by finnn on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:45PM (#15467259)
Couldn't the same be said about all the other shitty cloud-connected surveillance cameras? Not saying that justifies it, just that this is a bigger problem then just those awful internet of doorbells
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by TeMPOraL on Friday October 13, 2017 @02:10PM (#15467997)
Of course it can be. It's all shitty engineering - making roundtrip through cloud with data that should only ever touch your personal devices.
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by Mister_Snuggles on Friday October 13, 2017 @02:05PM (#15467937)
This is exactly why I haven't picked up a video doorbell doorbell yet.

Currently I have a bunch of cheap WiFi cameras, all made by D-Link. The thing I like about D-Link cameras is that when you put them on a WiFi network that isn't allowed to access the internet they still work as expected.

The cameras themselves have all of the smarts to do motion detection and email short recordings, they can also FTP images somewhere or you can use something like Zoneminder to handle things. None of this requires them to phone home or make use of some kind of cloud service.

Of course, D-Link does have a cloud service, but it's not required. To me it seems like the best of both worlds - the easy-to-use cloud service for those who want it, plus the ability to work standalone for those who don't want to use their service.

Why doesn't someone build a video doorbell that works like this? D-Link keeps making and selling these cameras, so clearly there's some kind of market for products that have a cloud service but don't require it.

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by teekert on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:46AM (#15466664)
Well, a doorbell is not exactly a part of the foundation and it is easily replaced. My house from the 1930's has seen several doorbells already.
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by thinkling on Friday October 13, 2017 @01:13PM (#15467498)
This isn't limited to the doorbell. It's the doorbell, the stereo system (Sonos), the connected garage door, the alarm, the security cameras, the thermostat, ... they're all dependent on their dedicated app.

When the vendor stops updating the app that goes with a 5-yo product that they no longer sell, at some point that app will no longer work under the new version of your mobile OS (iOS 16? 17?), and you'll have to give up on it.

There's a huge amount of obsolescence coming down the pike in 5-10 years.

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by aeorgnoieang on Friday October 13, 2017 @04:02PM (#15468847)
> There's a huge amount of obsolescence coming down the pike in 5-10 years.

I think that's okay, overall. These things should all be considered prototypes and shouldn't be expected to last forever. [I also think a certain about of obsolescence is sensible and even good given the potential upsides to maintaining people or teams capable of designing, manufacturing, and supporting specific products or services.]

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by ygra on Friday October 13, 2017 @10:53AM (#15466222)
Well, not many things remain the same in a house over several decades. Yes, such a doorbell is more or less an expensive toy that likely will cease to work within half a decade, but normal doorbells tend to break once a decade as well.
Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by Silhouette on Friday October 13, 2017 @05:25PM (#15469346)
And I just visited a building that is several centuries old, and gained admission by using a solid iron knocker on a big wooden door, both of which are original.

Not all technological changes are advances.

Re:What If We Put Warnings on IoT Devices? by pbhjpbhj on Friday October 13, 2017 @10:16AM (#15465854)
I'd like to go further and require the seller to pay for insurance to give an extended server life in the event the company folds OR release code for public servers that work all advertised features of the device.