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Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by moxious on Sunday October 08, 2017 @01:15PM (#15429016)
As someone who has been into AI since the mid-90s, I continue to be deeply disappointed with the overall rate of progress, this includes with all of the machine-learning and stats based recasting of what's meant by AI.

The big fundamental problems are all the same, and we don't appear to have much progress on them. We have figured out very clever ways of teaching extremely useful new tricks to computers. I don't mean to denigrate the value of that work, it just resembles regular programming, but by different means.

Whatever your definition of intelligence, there's little to no generalizability of what's happening right now.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by Animats on Monday October 09, 2017 @01:21AM (#15431737)
As someone who has been into AI since the late-70s, I am impressed with the overall rate of progress in the last 10 years. The whole field was stuck from the mid-1980s to about 2000. This is called the "AI Winter", and it really sucked.

AI used to be tiny - 20-50 people at CMU, Stanford, and MIT, and a few smaller groups elsewhere. All the '80s startups went bust. Now there are real applications that work and are widely deployed. Many classic problems, such as reading text and handwriting, have been solved and the solutions widely deployed commercially. Speech recognition is getting good and is deployed widely. Face recognition works. Automatic driving is working experimentally. There are now hundreds of thousands of people doing AI-type research.

Each new idea in AI has had a ceiling. Machine learning has a ceiling, but it's one high enough that the technology is good for something and generates enough revenue to finance its own R&D.

Machine learning is basically a form of high-dimensional multivariate optimization in possibly bumpy spaces. That's a hard problem, but considerable progress has been made, and the massive compute power necessary is now available. This is great. It's not everything, but it's real progress.

We're going to need another big idea to get beyond the ceiling of machine learning. No idea what that idea is.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by freyir on Monday October 09, 2017 @02:03AM (#15431838)
I’m an outsider, but what’s the recent “big idea”? It seems to be throwing more compute power and larger training sets at essentially an old technique. This has led to a big improvement in performance, but I don’t see the big conceptual breakthrough.
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by sgt101 on Monday October 09, 2017 @07:17AM (#15432904)
I think that Bayesian Program Learning as pioneered by Lake et-al is a big idea.

I think that GAN's probably qualify - although you can see that emerging in the SAB series of conferences in the 90's if you read the papers.

On the other hand I do see a lot of small innovations that are enabling many people to create incremental improvements and applications. I feel that that the exploration of the field has been very weak and our overall knowledge is limited and not widely shared. Perhaps the improvements like MCMC search for bayesian reasoning, causality, counterfactuals, GPU's and TPU's and FPGA's and the access to very large data sets for training, forward training and so on will be the actual breakthrough.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by indubitable on Sunday October 08, 2017 @02:15PM (#15429248)
A lot here depends on how you view generalization. Consider the Atari playing AI developed by Deepmind. It reached superhuman capability on a variety of different games given no domain specific knowledge. It had access to just the visual information and its score.

It's natural to claim that's not generalizing since it's in such a specific domain as well as the fact that it had access to its score. But I think you have to consider that life itself starts in the exact same way. We're little more than a vast number of evolutions starting from very simple organisms who's only purpose was to seek out sustenance. They had an extremely simplified domain with limited input thanks to fewer senses. And they also received a score. They were 'informed' of their sustenance and if it fell below a certain level, that was game over which they were also informed of --- at least in some manner of speaking.

I think the ultimate issue is that it's rather disappointing how unexciting it all is. And so we constantly shift the goal posts. Going back not that many decades ago it was believed that a computer being able to defeat humans at chess would signal genuine intelligence. Of course we managed to achieve that, but the matter of how it was done being so unexciting and uninteresting led us to shift the goal posts.

The achievements we're regularly producing now a days dwarf anything those speaking of chess=intelligence times could have even imagined. Nonetheless we still now go, "Nah.. that's not REAL intelligence either." But I think we will, up to the day we do genuinely create generalized intelligence argue that it's not 'REAL' intelligence. And I imagine we'll be arguing that's not 'REAL' intelligence even afterwards. Because it won't be magical, or exciting. I don't think there's ever going to be a "we've truly done it" moment. It's just going to be clever ways of teaching increasingly sophisticated tricks leading up to the point that a creation becomes more effective at most of any task, including assimilating and producing new knowledge and expertise, than we are.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by Cacti on Sunday October 08, 2017 @02:30PM (#15429316)
Do we even have a good definition of what it means to generalize? I keep seeing this term thrown about and while it makes intuitive sense, and certainly train/test/validation splits are useful, I sort of question the whole premise. I mean, when we consider all possible sets, all optimization problems perform equally well (or poorly), so in the most general sense, generalization is impossible. Which means we have to restrict our sets somehow, but to do that we have to have some measurement as to how they relate, but how do you know in advance? In a sense what the machine is learning is a distance metric between these sets, but the only way to know it's working is to actually run it. To say in advance "well, this machine generalizes this well on this class of problems" seems like an awful stretch.

So much of what we mean when we say "this model generalizes well" seems like baked-in human assumptions about the data distributions that may not really have any basis in reality.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by moxious on Sunday October 08, 2017 @03:33PM (#15429584)
Generalize does need to be more specific in order to make sense. In current ML work, generalizability means something else than what it typically used to mean in AI work.

One way to look at what generalizability is would be like this: problem domains typically come with sets of axioms. Generalizability is the ability for a solution approach to work across different domains that don't have 100% axiom overlap. The wider the difference between axiom sets for a domain, the more difficult / impressive the generalization.

Solving two problems within the same domain, necessarily sharing a 100% overlapping axiom set, is not generalization at all.

The reason the axioms supporting the domain matter is that they (in part) guide which heuristics work, and how they should be applied. And that's the sort of generalizability that is missing from current work: some solutions can make some pre-programmed choices about applying different heuristics depending on the problem set (driverless cars are doing this now). This is the "bag of tricks" approach. But they don't typically morph in how they are applied, or the end that they're trying to accomplish when they're applied.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by KGIII on Sunday October 08, 2017 @11:39PM (#15431430)
I have pondered this and have decided what my standards are. I realize I don't have the authority to set those standards for everyone.

GAI is, to me, when machine is able to be given a problem and then, without prompting, decides which data to consume to learn how to solve that problem. It could be told to optimize an automotive design for a 5% efficiency increase without a loss of safety features and while keeping the performance the same - and then go out and figure out what data it needs to learn so that it can solve that task. It would assemble and process that data and then come up with the answer, which might just be that it is impossible with current tech and here is what is needed and this is how to do it.

That's rather verbose and I'm absolutely not the person who gets to define it. But, when someone says AI, that is how I think of it. More so when they say general AI.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by yters on Monday October 09, 2017 @12:11AM (#15431531)
That's the frame problem, which is a huge issue for AI. In general it is impossible to solve due to the no free lunch theorem.
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by KGIII on Monday October 09, 2017 @11:06AM (#15434385)
Thank you. Would you know where I can look for more derailed info?
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by yters on Monday October 09, 2017 @11:13AM (#15434468)
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by KGIII on Monday October 09, 2017 @12:30PM (#15435249)
Thanks. Those will keep me busy for a while.

It's just curiosity, I'm not expecting to enter the field of AI research. It's still fun to learn. Again, thanks.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by goatlover on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:36AM (#15432105)
> And I imagine we'll be arguing that's not 'REAL' intelligence even afterwards.

When Data walks out of a lab, do you really think people will argue that he's not intelligent in the generalizable sense that humans are? Anyone who has watched ST:Next Generation agrees that he is.

> The achievements we're regularly producing now a days dwarf anything those speaking of chess=intelligence times could have even imagined.

I'm pretty sure the AI founders like Marvin Minsky could imagine Artificial Intelligence being generalized over various domains. I forget which one predicted the by the year 2000, an AI would be able to read all the world's books in an intelligent manner. McCarthy assigned a student to solving the robot vision problem over a summer back in the 60s.

Problem is that they underestimated the difficulties in getting a machine to perform tasks that are simple for us, while thinking that tasks like superhuman chess would be the difficult challenges. They had it backwards.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by roenxi on Sunday October 08, 2017 @05:14PM (#15430030)
To add to your excellent point; it takes 10-20 years to fully train a human from useless baby to fully functional. And that time is filled with days of continuous exposure to data.

There is no problem domain that humans have been shown to hold an unshakable advantage. I used to be able to say Go but that is no longer even a little bit true. It could well just be time and data from here.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by goatlover on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:44AM (#15432126)
Programming, philosophizing, holding a conversation, playing a sport, applying concepts learned in one domain to another, and a common sense understanding of the world (Minsky's big one).

And it's not just 10-20 years of a blank slate being exposed to data. It's evolved brain structures that know how to learn those skills. That's why a young human child quickly surpasses the learning abilities of chimpanzee.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by chongli on Sunday October 08, 2017 @08:50PM (#15430882)
It's natural to claim that's not generalizing since it's in such a specific domain as well as the fact that it had access to its score.

Yeah. I would like to see the same approach applied to NES games[0] with the capability of beating a game like Zelda or Ultima IV with no domain-specific knowledge. It's not going to happen. These games assume the player knows about human culture, values, virtues such as courage and triumph over the forces of evil. Symbols such as the sword and shield, the heart; they have deep meaning even to a person who has never played a video game before.

To build an AI that can play a game like that, without any specific knowledge of the game itself, would be to build something that likely reduces to general intelligence, though I hesitate to claim it forcefully.

[0] I am aware of this: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom7/mario/

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by goatlover on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:25AM (#15432082)
Deepmind also failed to reach human level on a a third of the games they trained it on. And I wonder about the superhuman level. Superhuman compared to average gamer, or really dedicated ones? Because there are people who have played perfect games of Pacman and Pitfall.
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by log_base_login on Monday October 09, 2017 @01:01AM (#15431675)
Most of what your brain does is statistical reasoning.

Much of the rest is logical inference.

You choose words in the order you choose them because as a child, your mind learned that, statistically speaking, certain words had certain meaning, and when used would engender certain results. All intelligent decisions follow that pattern. Training, comparison to expectations, memorize the difference, adjust behavior, rinse and repeat. Sound familiar?

Most of the intelligent mechanisms within the mind are employed through similar statistical inference, and when it's not done statistically (say, when you are inspired by some flash of 'insight' or when you dream things that have little obvious statistical grounding) there is still some reasoning within the mind that is allowing room for stochasticity to infer intelligence that is statistically calculated to be beneficial, when all other reasoning has failed. Tangentially, it might even be true that the irrational mind is simply one that uses stochastic reasoning more often than is deemed sane by our social norms.

Don't overstate intelligence like it's some amazing technology that we can't understand. Consciousness is more difficult to parlay into a black box model, but intelligence, reasoning, and 'wise' decision making is very much rooted in making statistically beneficial choices and deriving logic from the order we recognize via inductive and deductive reasoning.

If it sounds like I am oversimplifying, please understand that I hold the brain and the amazing parallel processing power it wields in high regard, and it's no mean feat for someone like Einstein, to use an obvious example of great intelligence, to intuit relativistic frameworks using only thought experiments, but his understanding (and everyone else's, for that matter) were built on many, many layers of statistical reasoning.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by darawk on Sunday October 08, 2017 @02:24PM (#15429287)
I think part of the problem is that humans like to define their own intelligence in grandiose terms. Prior to their being solved, object identification, human-level speech recognition, handwriting recognition, machine translation and many other tasks were thought to require general intelligence. But once we got the machines doing them for us, we decided they weren't so hard after all. From this you can conclude one of two things:

1. We're on the wrong track, and don't understand our own intellects at all.

2. Human intelligence is just a collection of these same hacks, possibly ensembled by some relatively thin meta-algorithm.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by moxious on Sunday October 08, 2017 @02:27PM (#15429305)
#2 is definitely wrong. We aren't a collection of similar hacks; we are qualitatively different because we include the ability to gain new heuristics and to cross apply the ones we already have. No clever library of strung together hacks will have these 2 properties. In the same way, an ant hill is not just a bunch of ants, it has so many emergent properties that thinking of it in terms of its components is a mistake

We should however think more expansively about intelligence than just the sort humans have. The goal doesn't need to be straight mimicry of humans

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by marcosdumay on Sunday October 08, 2017 @08:41PM (#15430843)
> In the same way, an ant hill is not just a bunch of ants, it has so many emergent properties that thinking of it in terms of its components is a mistake

The thing about emergent behavior is that you just have to take enough entities and organize them the correct way, and the behavior appears, unexpectedly, and out of nowhere.

If it is really emergent, then nobody (what includes me and you) has no idea how far we are from a general intelligence at all.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by cassowary on Sunday October 08, 2017 @09:12PM (#15430979)
An emergent property is precisely one that obtains unexpectedly from simple components. For instance, it is supposed by some that the universe truly consists of nothing more than electrons and quarks and what have you which interact in relatively simple ways, and that subjective human experience emerges from that. We then have a situation that is easier for us to reason about using higher level concepts, but there isn't a chapter in the laws of physics called "subjective human experience". That's in the book called "diverse applications of the basic laws of physics".

In any case, I dispute your facts too. I don't think we have the ability to cross apply our heuristics. I can calculate fairly accurately a lot of mathematical problems when I'm riding my bike, but put me in a maths class and I'm stuffed. I don't have independent access to those hacks.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by darawk on Sunday October 08, 2017 @03:43PM (#15429623)
A neural network that can train neural networks is capable of learning new heuristics. That is a thin meta-algorithm on top of a standard function approximation algorithm.

EDIT: I should also add that reinforcement learning more directly falsifies your claim.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by red75prime on Monday October 09, 2017 @01:41AM (#15431777)
> we include the ability to gain new heuristics and to cross apply the ones we already have.

Maybe our collection of hacks includes hack generation hacks (they cannot work reliably of course).

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by markan on Sunday October 08, 2017 @03:28PM (#15429556)
None of the problems you mention is actually solved though. They're all things that work sort of, some of the time, with caveats about how you define "work." They work well enough to be useful, but not well enough to argue we're converging on human-level intelligence.
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by cassowary on Sunday October 08, 2017 @09:18PM (#15431003)
Optical illusions (there's also physical ones) are often demonstrations that the problems aren't solved in humans either; they're just "things that work sort of, some of the time, with caveats about how you define 'work'".

More so if you include reasoning illusions like people being more scared to catch a plane than drive a car or thinking that a lotto ticket is a good investment.

Human intelligence doesn't really meet intuitive definitions of human intelligence. But it does work well enough as long as you ignore all the times it doesn't.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by cscurmudgeon on Sunday October 08, 2017 @03:31PM (#15429574)
None of those tasks have been solved fully at human-levels. Subtasks and datasets? yes.
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by darawk on Sunday October 08, 2017 @03:48PM (#15429644)
That isn't always true. Face recognition now exceeds human level performance. GoogleNet's image identifier is only 1.7% worse than this guy's performance:

http://karpathy.github.io/2014/09/02/what-i-learned-from-com...

Given that the author is writing a blog about AI, it's reasonable to assume he's above average in intelligence and knowledge, and therefore likely better than the average human at this task. But even if you don't make that assumption, object identification is within spitting distance of human level performance.

The same is true for many of these other tasks.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by cscurmudgeon on Sunday October 08, 2017 @04:32PM (#15429862)
Not it is not. Learning new object classes from a single image or a few images is very hard. See

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/350/6266/1332.short

Machine translation is a joke.

Put any comment on this page through Google translate to another language and back to English and see what you get.

I did a small part of yours. Hardly human-level for just a small simple sentence.

> But even if you do not make this assumption, identifying the object involves spitting the distance from the performance of the human level.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by darawk on Sunday October 08, 2017 @06:00PM (#15430229)
The fact that one-shot learning is still hard does not falsify what I said. Computers are now better than humans at many tasks that were once thought to be the domain of general intelligence. How they were trained is not particularly significant.
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by cscurmudgeon on Monday October 09, 2017 @12:00AM (#15431489)
It depends on what you mean by a task. Machines are not universally good at object detection because they fail in cases where there is too little data. We can't magically wish for non existent data (yet humans would do quite well on those data-scare tasks).
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by darawk on Monday October 09, 2017 @02:56AM (#15431991)
Ya, i'm happy to accept that humans are still better at generalizing from scant data. But that is something that's being actively worked on, and progress is being made.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-shot_learning

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by cscurmudgeon on Monday October 09, 2017 @11:19AM (#15434534)
Agreed. I would love to see quick progress in that too (that is one of my projects).
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by Nimitz14 on Sunday October 08, 2017 @06:37PM (#15430416)
There's been lots of articles recently about reaching "human-level" performence, you should know better than to believe them. The tests are on constrained datasets and ignore many factors. You mention face recognition, you realize for every image the program correctly recognizes, there also exists an image, that you will perceive as identical to the aforementioned one, yet which the system fails for.
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by darawk on Monday October 09, 2017 @02:51AM (#15431979)
Yes, i'm aware of differential attacks on neural networks. That doesn't falsify the hypothesis. There are instances where you will fail to recognize a human that those NNs will not.
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by im3w1l on Sunday October 08, 2017 @04:26PM (#15429830)
The brain for sure has a collection of hacks. But the meta-algorithm is pretty strong too.
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by ghaff on Sunday October 08, 2017 @04:05PM (#15429730)
The state of things seems to be that we've made really good progress with deep learning/neural networks/MLPs with the result that there's impressive fuzzy pattern recognition based on supervised learning. Which is great and has a lot of practical value but it's just one set of related techniques.

Cognitive science, on the other hand, has arguably not made a lot of great progress. We don't really understand how we learn. We don't really understand how language works. Etc. But arguably a lot of this sort of thing needs to be part of "AI" to get beyond problems that are amenable to pattern recognition.

Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by markan on Sunday October 08, 2017 @04:11PM (#15429760)
Totally agree with you. You might be interested in basicai.org. We're trying to address those big fundamental problems you reference.
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by SomeStupidPoint on Sunday October 08, 2017 @02:16PM (#15429254)
Could you outline some of the problems you think current research isn't addressing?
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by markan on Sunday October 08, 2017 @05:47PM (#15430182)
Not the GP, but some examples are: (1) how do you get a computer to have a human-like train of thought? (2) how do you get a computer to acquire new concepts (e.g. "debt", "global warming", "weed") and then reason about them correctly, without any reprogramming? (3) automated acquisition of common sense through experience (e.g. "if you pour water on the floor you will get a puddle") (4) deep natural language understanding (i.e. how do you make a chatbot that really understands, and isn't just a thin illusion of understanding).
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by cassowary on Sunday October 08, 2017 @09:34PM (#15431055)
(4) is an interesting question. Unfortunately it's much harder to understand than it is to ask. For instance, to people really understand, rather than just providing a thin illusion of understanding? What does it actually mean to understand something? Can you make a test that can distinguish arbitrary systems which truly understand from those which provide a thin illusion of understanding?
Re:The Seven Deadly Sins of AI Predictions by averagewall on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:07AM (#15432034)
This is a real problem for physics teachers - you want to find out if the students understand a concept:

Ask them to state it - they memorize the text book definition.

Ask them to apply it to a specified problem - they scan the problem for values of variables and look up a formula list to find one that has those variables.

Ask them to explain why their answer is correct and they form a grammatically correct explanation made by plucking phrases from the problem description and linking them to the answer with "so" or "because".

It feels like they don't understand but they actually can get a long way (ie. not fail) like that - it's certainly human level understanding, even if it's not what the smartest of us are capable of.

Personally, I think understanding is a continuum from special case memorization at the bottom, up to being able to link with a lot of other concepts at the top. There's no bright line between "truly understands" and "illusion".