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Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by mysterypie on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @05:17AM (#15399186)
> the team discovered lymphatic vessels in the dura, the leathery outer coating of the brain

Can someone explain why these vessels were never discovered during autopsies until now? Are they too thin, or transparent, or thought to have been something else, or the tubes become squished after death and therefore difficult to separate from other tissue, or what?

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by etiam on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:32AM (#15399450)
Kipnis made a mention of this in an interview closer to the actual discovery:

As to how the brain’s lymphatic vessels managed to escape notice all this time, Kipnis described them as “very well hidden” and noted that they follow a major blood vessel down into the sinuses, an area difficult to image. “It’s so close to the blood vessel, you just miss it,” he said. “If you don’t know what you’re after, you just miss it.”

http://neurosciencenews.com/lymphatic-system-brain-neurobiol...

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by lr4444lr on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @07:28AM (#15399708)
Then what of the Italian scientist who noted them 200 years ago? All of those dissections and attention to research in the modern age and it was actually taught in medical school that the brain had no lymphatic system? Seems a little far-fetched.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by efficax on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:41AM (#15400364)
We still have a very poor understanding of the body. We're still discovering organs we didn't know we had: https://theoutline.com/post/851/scientists-identify-new-orga...

It's entirely plausible to me that this has gone unnoticed for 200 years.

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by mfoy_ on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:23PM (#15402152)
No, they reclassified something they knew we had as an organ. Not like "whoa, what's this thing??".
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by jerf on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:47AM (#15400394)
"Then what of the Italian scientist who noted them 200 years ago?"

Two possibilities come to mind. First, he may have been studying a rare brain that had an enlarged system, and since he did not have preconceptions that what he found couldn't possibly be a component of the lymphatic system, he called it like he saw it. (It is also possible such brains were less rare back then or something. Many things have changed in our body's environments in the last 200 years. Random correlations abound.)

The other is that perhaps he was simply wrong. He saw something that he identified as a lymphatic component but was in fact something else. Future people didn't make the same mistake so the observation sank without a trace. 200 years later, the real and much-more-subtle lymphatic system was found.

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by dwringer on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:11AM (#15400186)
That reminded me of another example of this I remember seeing in the headlines; I'm not sure if this [1] is the one I'm recalling, but basically this is a similar situation for a different structure in the brain that was discovered in 1881 and then forgotten/ignored and omitted from medical texts for about a century.

[1] http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/november/mystery-brain-im...

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by justifier on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:33PM (#15405325)
Your comment reminded me of this recent video documenting something similar: https://youtu.be/faVlZRGyBDs

Video description:

Leonardo became obsessed with the heart in the latter period of his remarkable life. He made a prediction about the main blood vessel leaving the heart, the aorta. He had figured out how the flow of blood out of the heart actually closes the aortic valve.

Leonardo had no way of testing it and no way of seeing inside a working heart. For centuries no one else even speculated. But in the last 50 years technology has finally been invented to show that he was absolutely right.

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by kingkawn on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @08:41AM (#15400014)
Welcome to medicine
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by zellyn on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:38AM (#15400345)
The "they're really close to the blood vessels; you could easily miss them" answers don't make sense. Surely any time you do brain surgery in the area beside those blood vessels, you'd be studying the area minutely?
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by NamTaf on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:49AM (#15400412)
Anatomy textbooks aren't anything like real life. They're all colourful, clearly distinguished and clearly labelled, yet any autopsy will reveal a mess of reddish brown that tangles and squishes together. Also remember that human bodies aren't constructed, they're grown, so the idealised version of the textbook isn't what you end up seeing when you cut something open, and what you see when you do that changes each time you do that. It's why cadavers are still used to teach medical students.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by stult on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @10:29AM (#15400664)
>It's why cadavers are still used to teach medical students.

And even practicing surgeons. Cadaver studies are hugely important for training surgeons how to implant new or new-to-the-surgeon medical devices.

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by Flenser on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:41AM (#15399486)
considering the article also says:

Lymphatic vessels are part of the body’s circulatory system. In most of the body they run alongside blood vessels.

it's somewhat surprising (in hindsight I admit) that no-one thought to look for them there before.

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by etiam on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @07:41AM (#15399761)
Who says no-one thought to look? But apparently only one person on record found them before.

How about you have a peek at the research article, think away the colors from the antibody staining and see if you still consider it strange that it could go undiscovered.

The things in question are appropriately measured on a micrometer scale, fragile to match and tightly tangled up with similar things inside jelly. And needless to say they don't come with helpful colored plastic hulls or developer defined object type annotation for inspection.

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by Brammarb on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:25AM (#15400271)
I would imagine there are quite a number of blood vessels in the brain ...
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by signa11 on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:14AM (#15400203)
fta: In 1816, an Italian anatomist reported finding lymphatic vessels on the surface of the brain, but for two centuries, it was forgotten. Until very recently, researchers in the modern era found no evidence of a lymphatic system in the brain, leaving some puzzled about how the brain drains waste, and others to conclude that brain is an exceptional organ. Then in 2015, two studies of mice found evidence of the brain’s lymphatic system in the dura. Coincidentally, that year, Dr. Reich saw a presentation by Jonathan Kipnis, Ph.D., a professor at the University of Virginia and an author of one the mouse studies.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by gm-conspiracy on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @08:19AM (#15399925)
Is it visible within this project?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_Human_Project

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by nscalf on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @11:25AM (#15401123)
A few years ago we discovered a new ligament in the knee. Knee injuries that frequently require surgery are so common in children that it's considered an epidemic. I don't really have a good answer to why we don't know about these things, but this isn't the only case of it lately.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by Boothroid on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:06AM (#15399345)
I wonder the same thing. Not to be snarky, but is there something faulty about medics or human biologists?! Why do I have a feeling that if we deployed computer scientists at medical research we would get a better result? I can accept that at the lower level things get fiendishly complex, but surely at a macro level like this it's just a case of diligent analysis?
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by _jal on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @08:12AM (#15399890)
> Why do I have a feeling that if we deployed computer scientists at medical research we would get a better result?

Because comp sci has an arrogance problem that rivals that of doctors?

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by dabockster on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @12:54PM (#15401872)
> Because comp sci has an arrogance problem that rivals that of doctors?

Nailed it!

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by graphitezepp on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:11AM (#15400188)
The only difference (from my perspective of course) is comp sci arrogance is directed towards our field and associated methodologies, principles, etc. Doctors direct their arrogance towards themselves.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by oddlyaromatic on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:21AM (#15400237)
This generalization is pretty large and may itself be an example of arrogance. But I think maybe it's just the brevity of your comment that gives this impression.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by graphitezepp on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @10:16AM (#15400574)
Thanks for being charitable, I did not mean to imply that what I claim many comp sci people do is any better or less arrogant, just different.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by oddlyaromatic on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @12:57PM (#15401910)
It implies you know what doctors do about as well as you know what comp sci people do, by virtue of comparing the two. The comp sci part is at risk of taking your anecdotal experience as too representative of the whole. The doctor part is (presumably) at risk of relying on stereotypes about doctors having "God complexes" ... So to get to an effective general comparison would be quite difficult without more accurate data. Buuut if we see ourselves as smart computer people, maybe we think more highly of our own inferences than they deserve. I would expect doctors' arrogance has a lot to do with their training and respect for their processes and practices as being highly reliable and advanced. Rather than them personally just having a talent for doctoring.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by blubb-fish on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:16AM (#15399370)
Most professionals in the field of medicine were educated towards an elitist and dogmatic mindset. When I talk with a physician about the human body I always get the impression they really believe the body works as described in the books - exactly like that. Most of them didn't seem to have noticed or learned that what we know about medicine is just theory approximating reality and all of those theories had to be updated sooner or later - always.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by autokad on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:36AM (#15400331)
one time i got a sore throat and fevor, the fevor wouldnt break for 7 days. the entire time i could feel the spot where my sickness was coming from. i looked in a mirror and there were puss modules - classic strep throat. I go to the doctor, she does the strep test and it comes back negative, she refuses to prescribe me antibiotics and told me to just go home and rest.

luckily, i had a penicillin script that I didnt finish, and after the first pill the sore throat (and the fever) broke within hours.

later when talking to my brother (who is a doctor), he told me the problem, one that he had also. When he gave the step test, it came back negative even when he knew it was positive. an older attending told him that you have to really get it in there, rub it around for a long time in order for it to work, where most just do a quick swipe.

another such example was someone came to the ER with chest pain. they didnt detect anything in the blood test so they were going to send him home. my brother refused and ordered more tests. turns out he was in the middle of having a heart attack when they were going to send him home, because ... the test.

the moral to the story is, many doctors blindly rely on tests and whats in the book, and disregard contradicting evidence.

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by logfromblammo on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @12:27PM (#15401660)
Your doc just did the physician equivalent of "closed, cannot reproduce".

Also, shame on you for not finishing your antibiotic prescription. Always finish your antibiotic! If you don't finish, you run the risk of a resurgence of the infection, except this time with bacteria resistant to the antibiotic you failed to finish.

If you really feel like you need a private stash of antibiotic, buy amoxicillin for aquarium fish instead of saving portions of old prescriptions. And make sure you weigh yourself and appropriately calculate the mg/kg dosage before using it.

(I understand that this is hypocritical to shame someone for not finishing a prescription antibiotic and also to recommend misuse of veterinary antibiotics.)

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by zimpenfish on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @12:42PM (#15401770)
> Always finish your antibiotic!

Opinions differ:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/26/rule-patient...

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by quicknir on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @07:59PM (#15405827)
Fyi for a healthy person taking anti biotics for strep has almost no effect (reduces symptoms by like 12 hours) except you stop being contagious much faster. So it wasn't really that critical.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by MyNameHere on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:29AM (#15400287)
Medical doctors are not Ph.D.'s. They are technicians, more akin to an auto mechanic than a scientist.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by grandalf on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:46PM (#15402443)
> more akin to an auto mechanic than a scientist

Keep in mind that society has chosen to have physicians carry social and often moral authority. They are the modern priests and priestesses of our secular world.

What stings when a physician is impatient or misses something obvious is the disrespect people feel because of the physician's venerated status. It's as if a person of faith is visiting a Bishop and the Bishop mutters a profanity during the blessing.

The irritation and accusations of arrogance toward physicians that are found in this thread are (if read carefully) reflections of the unique, clergy-like role that physicians play. A physician's opinion can get you decades of workers comp or can deny it to you, it can make you feel responsible for a health problem or vindicated, it can result in the removal of pain or the continuation of it. Physicians let some people get high every day on any number of drugs, declare others bad surgical candidates, and instill (or withhold) hope in those whose life hangs in the balance.

It's a deeply moral role, and the trend toward free healthcare for all is analogous to publishing the bible in languages besides Latin. Physicians are gatekeepers to redemption and this makes some people very angry.

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by karmajunkie on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @05:19PM (#15404796)
I make the same analogy all the time, but I'm reminded of an old joke[1]:

A mechanic was removing a cylinder-head from the motor of a Harley motorcycle when he spotted a well-known cardiologist in his shop.

The cardiologist was there waiting for the service manager to come and take a look at his bike when the mechanic shouted across the garage.

"Hey, Doc, want to take a look at this?"

The cardiologist, a bit surprised, walked over to where the mechanic was working on the motorcycle.

The mechanic straightened up, wiped his hands on a rag and asked, "So Doc, look at this engine. I open its' heart, take the valves out, repair any damage, and then put them back in, and when I finish, it works just like new. So how come I make $39,675 a year and you get the really big bucks ($1,695,759) when you and I are doing basically the same work?"

The cardiologist paused, smiled and leaned over, then whispered to the mechanic.....

"Try doing it with the engine running."

[1] Found a better version than the one I was screwing up in the retelling at https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/983804-joke-harley-mechan...

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by scrumper on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @11:49AM (#15401364)
(I get the point you're making, but many, at least in the UK, are also dual qualified: Ph.D's as well as MDs.)
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by userbinator on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:29AM (#15399432)
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by Boothroid on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @07:09AM (#15399622)
As I said in my comment, at a macro level. I just don't understand how new human anatomical features that are not even at a microscopic level are still being discovered in 2017. It boggles the mind.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by junke on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:08AM (#15399350)
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by skocznymroczny on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @07:03AM (#15399592)
Replace "Algorithms" with "Machine learning" and you have 2017.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by Boothroid on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @07:06AM (#15399611)
Hardly the same thing.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by pc86 on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @08:15AM (#15399903)
It is... exactly what you're saying. Except it's satire, and unfortunately you seem to be serious.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by Boothroid on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @08:29AM (#15399950)
Read: I can accept that at the lower level things get fiendishly complex, but surely at a macro level like this it's just a case of diligent analysis?

How are they missing features that are visible with the human eye? I find it incredible.

Also, XKCD meme is the tiredest meme around.

Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by lawlessone on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:34AM (#15400310)
You should post this on r/iamverysmart, they would "love" you.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @10:52AM (#15400855)
I think this may be an example of the Dunning–Kruger effect - when they complexities aren't understood, it's easy to makes assumptions where you simplify to absurdity.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by Boothroid on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:07PM (#15402715)
Dunning-Kruger is another lazy meme.
Re:Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain by pedrosorio on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @10:51AM (#15400837)
Computer scientists are the new physicists: https://xkcd.com/793/