News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by kqr on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @10:36AM (#15392675)
If you're on the edge about trying FreeBSD on some server instead of Linux, I strongly suggest diving in. I decided to go with FreeBSD on my home server after some back-and-forth, and it has been nothing but a thoroughly positive experience.

- The structure of the system makes total sense to me, making it easy to do stuff.

- The system is relatively simple in its design, which means I actually feel like I could troubleshoot any aspect of it. With Linux I often end up in a situation where I think, "Okay, and that component is in $complex_subsystem_12 so I have no chance of fixing it."

- The documentation is great. For regular system maintenance, mostly everything you'll ever need is in the FreeBSD Handbook and you can often find separate, but equally complete, documents for more specific tasks like the Porter's Handbook, the Project Model documentation, the Developer's Handbook and the various system architecture/design books floating around.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by Mister_Snuggles on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:03AM (#15392875)
One of the big differences between FreeBSD and Linux is that FreeBSD is designed and built as a complete system, whereas Linux is a kernel plus a collection of userland utilities from third-parties all of which has been configured by a vendor.

Neither approach is necessarily right or wrong, just different.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by digi_owl on Thursday October 05, 2017 @12:16PM (#15410338)
Linux used to be able to run just as lean as the BSDs, and perhaps still can (see Slackware).

but i fear that as it has gotten more attention in the corporate world more and more complexity has crept in as said corporate world wants something akin to AD and group policy so that the compute resources can be matched more closely to the division flow charts.

This, in combo with a ongoing "users are sheep that need a shepherd" attitude from certain elements of the community leads to complexity piling on.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by Koshkin on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:12AM (#15392934)
I keep hearing this ad nauseam, but what makes a system useful in the first place is the vast repository of third-party applications and not the base install (which you call "a complete system").
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by jedberg on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:51AM (#15393259)
FreeBSD still has a plethora of 3rd party applications, it's just that they enforce things like what you can put in /etc and /var and so on, making things much more regular.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by sigjuice on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:19PM (#15393534)
Could you please list a few examples of these 3rd party FreeBSD applications that you have in mind? Thanks!
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by paultownsend on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:33PM (#15393670)
The FreeBSD Ports Collection[1] is the main means of installing 3rd party software on FreeBSD. Precompiled packages are available, too. You can view a list of available ports on FreshPorts[2]. Of course you can always just compile and build your own software if you choose.

[1] https://www.freebsd.org/ports/index.html [2] http://www.freshports.org/categories.php

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by petre on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:29PM (#15394203)
Lately, since pkg was introduced I find myself installing stock packags most of the time. Only if I want X compile time feature enabled I'd use the ports system. Updates are faster as well. I used to `make world`, now I just do `freebsd-update -r <release> upgrade`.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by kqr on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:54AM (#15398733)
I'm still a new user so I deliberately choose to compile ports to learn the FreeBSD way of thinking about stuff, understand how packaging works under the hood, and not fall into the trap of thinking it's "almost a Linux". Compiling ports is surprisingly convenient (at least after I learned the config-recursive make target...) and works most of the time.

But that said, letting the compilation of JDK 1.8 run overnight isn't exactly convenient, and for the next install I'm likely to use precompiled packages, confident that I do know how to compile ports on my own should I want to.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by petre on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @05:02AM (#15399123)
Yes, cases similar to building jdk from the ports collection are exactly why prebuilt packages exist. It's now very easy to provision a new system since the new package manager was introduced in 10R, pretty much like in Linux. Yet you also have the option of using ports tree and customizing packages yourself using `make config` and the building and installing them using `make` and `make install`. This is easier than installing source rpms or debs and customizing your build mainly because it's menu driven and all the popular options are on the menu.

FreeBSD provides a quartely branch (enabled by default since 10.2) with prebuilt packages that are supported up to 3 months, to avoid moving too fast and breaking things. There's also the latest branch, with the latest and greatest stuff.

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/p...

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by ianai on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:11PM (#15394014)
In my experience, the design of FreeBSD makes compiling projects much more easy. The standardized system really helps at many tasks.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by Koshkin on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:27PM (#15394185)
But few projects are designed to only support FreeBSD. In the UNIX world, Autoconf still reigns supreme.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by rleigh on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @02:16PM (#15394655)
Autoconf is completely orthogonal to the base/ports split and FreeBSD vs Linux or any other UNIX.

All the ports are simply automatically configured with "--prefix=/usr/local".

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by barkingcat on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:38PM (#15393724)
The Ports collection is similar in scope to any of the application databases maintained by Linux distros such as Redhat and Ubuntu.

In fact, many of the packages are exactly the same from the same upstream. The differences are freebsd specific patches to fix small (like enabling or disabling different compile flags) or large (for example in the case of gnome or openjdk which requires effort to port) issues, but the packages are all there.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by sigjuice on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:09PM (#15393981)
Yes, I have used FreeBSD and ports. I thought OP's message implied that there are 3rd party applications that are available exclusively for FreeBSD.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by ianai on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:50PM (#15394419)
For a while there, one such feature was ZFS. I know ZOL is a thing, and the pool versions are the same, but I'd bet ZFS on FreeBSD is still more stable/standard than ZOL. (It's been a while since I tried to learn the differences between ZOL/ZFS under FreeBSD so that could be out of date)
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by sigjuice on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @08:39PM (#15397460)
ZFS on FreeBSD does not fit the definition of 'third party'.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by ianai on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:41PM (#15402364)
It’s as third party as I imagine a production file system should be.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by CyberDildonics on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:30PM (#15393636)
Do you realize that you can compile open source programs for FreeBSD and FreeBSD can run linux binaries?
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by sigjuice on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:13PM (#15394035)
Yes I know open source programs compile and run on FreeBSD and other Unix-like systems. And also that FreeBSD can run at least some Linux binaries.

I mistakenly assumed that OP was referring to 3rd party applications that were exclusive to FreeBSD.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by ianai on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:51PM (#15394431)
It's a FOSS project. Typically, FOSS operating systems differentiate on system features/applications and not on 3rd party applications. Things like package management, file system support, etc.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by Koshkin on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @02:14PM (#15394637)
Sure, but that's not what makes a computer useful in the first place.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by fasquoika on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:35PM (#15393693)
List some well known ones for Linux. There's a 95% chance there's a FreeBSD port
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by PeCaN on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:20PM (#15393546)
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by kqr on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:41PM (#15393747)
Keep in mind you need a good base system in order for the third party applications to run reliably.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by danieldk on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @02:14PM (#15394634)
But how can we measure the quality of the base system? I tried FreeBSD again a while back, but there were pretty bad bugs even in basic UNIX utilities like grep [1], some utilities + UTF-8, and I also had some kernel panics.

[1] I reported one of them in the FreeBSD bug tracker (+ patch). OpenBSD was actually really quick to solve this (I think tedu@ patched it), while the bug lingered for a long time with no activity on FreeBSD's end.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by bluGill on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:46AM (#15393211)
As a user that is true. As an administrators the you are using those utilities more and so the complete system is important.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by teekert on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @10:43AM (#15392718)
I've been on the fence but tipped back. I'm also always on the fence about Arch vs Ubuntu. But the speed and ease with which you get an application like NextCloud fully running on Ubuntu is unmatched. I don't want to spend time tweaking php.ini (anymore), I just want to install nginx and php7 en find that <? phpinfo(); ?> just works. And when I want to VNC into the box for various reasons, I just want it to work and not mess with x configs or put up with very ugly theme-less windows. The BSD pull is there (even more from OpenBSD), I feel it, but after an evening of struggle I often revert back to Ubuntu LTS. I have run Gentoo on my server, back when I didn't have kids nor required regular sleep. Now I just want stuff to work and run after installing it. I want Snaps and Docker to just work after apt installing them.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by kqr on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:33AM (#15393071)
> But the speed and ease with which you get an application like NextCloud fully running on Ubuntu is unmatched

What cooled these worries for me was realising that if I know something to be much easier in Linux, it takes very little to launch a virtual machine and run it in that. So far it hasn't been needed!

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by loeg on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:56AM (#15393295)
I'll add that if you're installing a new system, install 11.1 or 12 (CURRENT), not 10.4. 10.4 is an update for people already on the old-stable 10.x branch.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by cat199 on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @02:03PM (#15394543)
Definately agree with the overall point -

That said, if using as a critical file server, etc be sure to do some system managment practice in a VM to get the commands down 1st - one of the major ways Linux differs from FreeBSD is that storage managment is radically different - and these are the kinds of commands you'll need to run in this context, only rarely, and typically when dealing with critical issues (disk fails, yadda).. so good to make sure you have solid fundamentals before putting all of your critical stuff there - not because of system issues, but because of potential PEBCAK issues..

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by olavgg on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @10:43AM (#15392719)
I agree, I would also like that add that I learned a lot more about Linux when I learned FreeBSD. It it also a nice system for Java applications these days too, which I struggled with 5+ years ago.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by binaryapparatus on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:11PM (#15394013)
Same recommendation for desktop too. Switching from Arch to FreeBSD couple of months ago was the best move I could do.

Silly way to compare stuff but my Arch always run with processor at 70-72 degrees Celsius. Same setup on FreeBSD and my processor runs at 39-45. Since everything else but kernel runs as exact copy it shows to me that FreeBSD either has less kernel overhead or does scheduling better.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by PopsiclePete on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @06:25PM (#15396715)
I'm going to go ahead and not recommend that people run FreeBSD on their desktops.

FreeBSD's hardware support is pretty poor - they don't even support intel graphics cards from 3 years ago - https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics#Intel_Graphics. WiFi support can also be spotty.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by drsopp on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:17PM (#15394073)
I remember back in the 90s when I listened to my 100MHz CPU with a radio. FreeBSD sounded like gentle raindrops. Windows 95 screamed.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by CyberDildonics on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:25PM (#15402173)
You should do that again, a writeup on that with audio would be garner plenty of attention.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by danieldk on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @02:19PM (#15394682)
Same recommendation for desktop too.

A serious question, since such recommendations are regularly thrown around in these threads.

Can you run FreeBSD with a recent AMD GPU (I know that there is the proprietary NVIDIA driver)? Does Wayland work? What about HiDPI screens with GNOME? Is there support for Dropbox now? Is Chrome supported? Does it use GPU acceleration for movie playback?

(As far as I could gather the answer to most of these questions is still 'no'.)

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by binaryapparatus on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @05:23AM (#15399213)
Sorry I have no need or use for any of the listed packages/items. Nvidia works extremely well. I don't have AMD. I won't be using Wayland any time soon even if I could. GNOME is or is becoming systemd hostage so I won't install it ever on any system. Dropbox is not welcome for me. Chromium works well. I think GPU acceleration works well.

It all depends on what you use but definitely works well for my needs.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by philsnow on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @03:20PM (#15395234)
Are you running arch userspace with freebsd kernel? Is this like running debian kfreebsd ?
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by binaryapparatus on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @05:04AM (#15399131)
No, I was running 'pure' Arch, same as I do with FreeBSD now. List of my packages is very minimal so it can be assumed they reliably work the same way on both systems.

I am using offlineimap, mutt, vdirsyncer, khal, khard, w3m, urxvt...

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by foo101 on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:24PM (#15398077)
Do you or anyone similarly have any suggestions or recommendations about NetBSD or OpenBSD? With Linux, the decision to choose Debian and CentOS has been easy for me. Ubuntu is very popular and Debian is at the top of the lineage tree. Similarly, RHEL or CentOS is very popular in the industry where RHEL is at the top of the lineage tree and CentOS is just the rebranded RHEL made available for free.

But with BSD, inspite of being very interested in it, I have not been able to pick one due to analysis paralysis. If I have enough time only to spend time with one of the BSDs, what possible criteria should I use to evaluate them against one another and pick one?

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by kqr on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:05AM (#15398767)
The two things that made me install FreeBSD rather than OpenBSD was (1) the better hardware support when it comes to Intel-derived architectures, and (2) not as opinionated and, frankly, in many cases plain rude, project leads.

From a technical and documentation standpoint, OpenBSD is utterly fantastic and FreeBSD is doing its best to get ahead.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by chousuke on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @12:39AM (#15398298)
Give OpenBSD a try. Of the BSDs I've tried, it's the one that feels the most "tasteful", if that makes sense. Everything in the base system is well-documented, well-executed and feels consistent, and most things just do the right thing with minimal configuration.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by PeeryTwo on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @10:41AM (#15392709)
Latest Beta of Snort on FreeBSD has control-channel support now finally, making it easier to change the config without interrupting packet flows.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by bauerd on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:26AM (#15393016)
Can someone comment on the state of Docker on FreeBSD? I know I can have jails but what about Docker?
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by soupbowl on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:31AM (#15393061)
From my experience and reading online, most people suggest spinning up a small Linux vm in bhyve and running docker from it instead of through FreeBSD.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by takeda on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @03:50PM (#15395549)
Docker is flawed in a way that by definition it expects to run Linux code. If you run docker on Mac or Windows it actually starts it in a VM.

So with these requirements you can't run it on anything but Linux.

FreeBSD actually has compatibility mode and can run Linux binaries, but why would I want that instead of running a native code?

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by bauerd on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:43AM (#15398896)
Because I like FreeBSD and if the kernel's compat layer got the job done, why not?
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by takeda on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @12:04PM (#15401476)
Well I mean you can run it, I was not even aware there is some effort[1] to run it.

What I was trying to say is that in my opinion this is one of inherent flaws in Docker and I think docker is really a dead end (I'm not talking about dead end of containerization, but just this kind of approach).

What people actually expect from containerization is essentially what Kubernetes is currently providing (quickly spinning new instances of processes, autoscaling, load balancing, rolling updates etc), but I already see questioning why docker is even needed at that point when really cgroups are used to restrict resources and processes already provide enough isolation.

[1] https://wiki.freebsd.org/Docker

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by xenophonf on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:42AM (#15393165)
It's still experimental:

https://wiki.freebsd.org/Docker

Using FreeBSD as the Docker host requires the Linux compatibility layer, like Windows and macOS.

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by vertex-four on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:54AM (#15393278)
Windows and macOS literally spin up VMs for Docker - the compat layer in FreeBSD runs binaries natively, just translating syscalls in the kernel.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by eatonphil on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:13PM (#15394036)
They used to. The native version has been in beta for a while and it's fairly stable. I've used it locally for about a year.

https://thenewstack.io/native-docker-comes-windows-mac/

Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by vertex-four on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:15PM (#15394052)
No, that literally says they use VMs - they just internally manage them.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by eatonphil on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @02:09PM (#15394598)
Whoops, you're right. They switched from VirtualBox to xhyve on macOS but it's still a VM.
Re:FreeBSD 10.4-Release by X86BSD on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @02:00PM (#15394512)
You might also be interested in something better like Project FIFO[1].

[1] http://project-fifo.net