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Re:A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs by lovich on Sunday October 01, 2017 @10:13PM (#15381261)
Not to discount your story, but weren't the financial implications of a PhD in the mid 80s and the mid 10s drastically different? If the benefits, the joy of learning and chance of getting a job, are the same but the costs, the massive amounts of debt you need in modern times, are much higher, but the number of PhD students is the same doesn't that mean something had to have changed? Maybe learning is more enjoyable now, which is certainly plausible with the internet, but maybe students are being liked to a higher rate?
Re:A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs by analog31 on Sunday October 01, 2017 @11:55PM (#15381603)
Indeed, my parents put me through college, and I finished grad school with money in the bank thanks to the NSF.

At the time, the conventional wisdom was: Don't get a graduate degree unless somebody else is paying for it, or you are in a job that guarantees a salary bump for doing it. I don't think that's changed.

Re:A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs by sjg007 on Monday October 02, 2017 @03:23AM (#15382189)
Unless you live in a high COL area where even NSF grant money isn’t enough.
Re:A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs by analog31 on Monday October 02, 2017 @08:27AM (#15383279)
The NSF grant money wasn't paid directly to students. The departments still set the pay scale, and had to deal with COL disparities like all employers do. And if your prof couldn't support you, then you didn't work for that prof, or you got a teaching assistantship.

At least in my field, physics, lack of sufficient funding meant you didn't get students.

This whole business wasn't risk free. There were students who dropped out because their prof lost funding. In my view, the risk of not finishing at all is a bigger cost of graduate education than the pay scale.

Re:A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs by sjg007 on Monday October 02, 2017 @09:54AM (#15383833)
Lol.. UCLA pays grad students 18k ish. Barely enough to survive. Yes not finishing is a real risk but it’s not true that students can generally survive on that without loans or savings. In other lower cost areas, they can. MIT, Columbia and other schools also have better financial packages / housing options.
Re:A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs by analog31 on Monday October 02, 2017 @12:08PM (#15384983)
I remember even in the 1980s, there were schools where the pay packages didn't look all that competitive. It's possible that there are grad students who have family support.
Re:A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs by krastanov on Sunday October 01, 2017 @10:28PM (#15381333)
At least in STEM, tuition is practically free and PhD students are paid for their research work and teaching. There are even PhD student labor unions in most public and some private universities. (Whether the pay is good and whether unionizing makes sense are separate topics).

You will not get paid well as a PhD student, but there is no massive amount of debt involved either (and again, whether there are opportunity costs is a separate topic).

Re:A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs by cinquemb on Sunday October 01, 2017 @10:44PM (#15381393)
Too bad you can't (edit: very difficult to) get a PhD, in the US today, without going at least into an order of magnitude more debt (or in debt at all) while in undergrad when comparing to the early 1980's.

I did hear of a German uni that accepts people for PhD programs without an undergraduate degree, but iirc you need like 4 or more publications. But that seems like an exception to everywhere else.

Re:A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs by RhodesianHunter on Monday October 02, 2017 @12:16AM (#15381670)
I think you meant to imply that it was difficult to so, but you said "can't".

You absolutely can get a paid for ba and ma in the US. It isn't easy, but thousands do so.

Re:A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs by krastanov on Monday October 02, 2017 @12:20AM (#15381679)
Yes, but this is a problem unrelated to PhD programs (the majority of people go to college and college is expensive).

Moreover a good high school mentor will help you navigate to good financial aid (I have friends who came from the lower middle class who did not pay a penny for their Yale or Harvard or Cornell undergraduate degrees). They did pay for books though...

Re:A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs by cinquemb on Monday October 02, 2017 @12:32AM (#15381716)
> …(the majority of people go to college and college is expensive).

This didn't used to be the case, so, yes it is true to say it is unrelated to the PhD programs if you set aside what it takes for people to enter them in the first place and the decisions that have to be made by all actors (of which only the self has control over).

>Moreover a good high school mentor will help you navigate to good financial aid (I have friends who came from the lower middle class who did not pay a penny for their Yale or Harvard or Cornell undergraduate degrees).

Yeah sure, my sister got a full ride for undergrad and for her masters and my cousin got a full ride for undergrad, but for every person like them, there are many more that even leveraging such knowledge of opportunities and trying to pursue them in earnest, doesn't net them opportunities.