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Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by sfRattan on Saturday September 23, 2017 @04:11PM (#15321470)
I think DuckDuckGo is unfairly singled out here. They do more than most companies to protect privacy, and most of their users are specifically trying to deprive Google of more feed for its data silo. Of course they can't protect you from the NSA. Extremely few actors can.

If your threat model includes actors within the US Federal Government (especially the intelligence community), run. Yesterday. That's a statement about our times, not about any particular company.

The solution ought to be browbeating the US Government for unethical practices, not browbeating a company that does privacy better than most, and not as well as would be necessary to stand toe-to-toe with some of the most powerful and far reaching organizations in the world.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by TAForObvReasons on Saturday September 23, 2017 @04:42PM (#15321593)
The article was a response to a guardian article that ultimately cited https://siliconangle.com/blog/2013/06/14/duckduckgo-the-pris...

> “By not storing any useful information, DuckDuckGo simply isn’t useful to these surveillance programs,” says Weinberg. “We literally do not store personally identifiable user data, so if the NSA were to get a hold of all our data, it would not be useful to them since it is all truly anonymous.”

DDG is "unfairly singled out" for good reason, namely that company representatives made an incorrect assertion. DDG is still useful for ongoing surveillance, as the article pondered:

> But what if DuckDuckGo provided a splitter-feed to the NSA? DuckDuckGo can claim without lying that they store no personal information, but that speaks nothing of a collaborating partner storing it.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by chiefalchemist on Saturday September 23, 2017 @04:51PM (#15321646)
Not to get off topic but there's a part of me that suspect the Equifax hack has the NSA (or will ultimately filter back to them). When I read Dragnet Nation a couple years ago one of the things that left an impression on me was the fact that the gov can buy "private" personal data on the open market just like anyone else can. That is, it's not spying (and a violate of right / laws) if the data is on the free market.

Obviously, DDG isn't perfect. I'm not naive. But for me there's some value in trying not to succumb to Google's desire to have us all assimilate.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by uabstraction on Saturday September 23, 2017 @08:01PM (#15322464)
> there's a part of me that suspect the Equifax hack has the NSA

This is ridiculous. It makes no sense why the NSA or any other members of the US Intelligence Community would cause this sort of reputational damage and nationwide outrage to a company when they could simply walk up to them with one of those fancy national security letters with a built in gag order and take the information with much less of a fuss.

Other than that, I agree. Google should buy me a god damn drink if they really want to get to know me. :)

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by chiefalchemist on Sunday September 24, 2017 @08:34AM (#15324438)
Ridiculous? Not at all.

In the context of the history of the CIA and NSA it's standard procedure. And that's just the stuff we know about. Certainly Snowden taught us anything is possible, that they have no restraint.

B

On the other hand, politely asking an outfit like Equifax for (just about) ALL their data with no real reason would be out of character. Why bother? Why go on record?

It's pretty simple. Why would they get via hack? Answer: Because they can.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by djsumdog on Sunday September 24, 2017 @11:11AM (#15324988)
> Snowden

Snowden, a man who worked from home in Hawaii as an NSA contractor making over $200k a year with his smoking hot girlfriend, who suddenly decided he had a moral compass, was able to download tons of classified files over VPN to his laptops and run off to meet Greenwald et. al. to divulge all this information, then flee to Russia where he sends out anti-Russian tweets.

Meanwhile, nothing has happened. The NSA is still spying. PRISM seems to be something everyone has forgotten about (did it even exist? Most companies denied it). His evidence were all rededicated power point slides.

Question the narratives that are given to you.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by enraged_camel on Sunday September 24, 2017 @02:54PM (#15325942)
What does Snowden's girlfriend have anything to do with... well, anything?
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by mancerayder on Sunday September 24, 2017 @09:41PM (#15327527)
I'm not sure what the poster was getting at - are security contractors with smoking hot girlfriends making 200k a year less credible such that we should explore conspiracy theories?

If so, poor security contractors (and their apparently less appealing girlfriends) with our cynical assumptions.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by ric2b on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @06:28AM (#15391397)
Probably just salty that Snowden gets to have a hot girlfriend and also be a hero.
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by dx034 on Sunday September 24, 2017 @06:32AM (#15324196)
The accessed data at Equifax are SSNs, DOB and address. Why should the state hack a company to access data they already have? After all, SSN is state-issued and addresses at Equifax will be known to at least one agency (probably IRS).
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by chiefalchemist on Sunday September 24, 2017 @08:37AM (#15324457)
That's a good question. My reply would be I'm not sure the intelligence community / legal profession can collect and hoard such things without legal approval.

Certainly Equifax has other data. Maybe they didn't get what they wanted? Maybe Equifax isn't being transparent? Maybe they don't know?

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by tskaiser on Sunday September 24, 2017 @09:28AM (#15324614)
That's a lot of maybes to support an already unlikely scenario.
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by chiefalchemist on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:02PM (#15334112)
Unlikely? Because in the history of the NSA or CIA there has never been an "No way??!! They did what???"

What do you think the NSA is doing with all that computing (and storage) power? Processing cat photos? :)

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by albinofrenchy on Sunday September 24, 2017 @12:48AM (#15323359)
This vaguely reminds me of the time a paranoid coworker told me not to store tax documents on the cloud because the government could get at it.
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by chiefalchemist on Sunday September 24, 2017 @08:41AM (#15324465)
You're missing the point. That is it's possible, if not probable (per books like Dragnet Nation, Snowden, etc.) that data is being collected and you have no idea why, who, etc.

I'm not saying i think that's what happened. I'm saying there's a part of me that has good reason it it's possible it could be that. Crazy? Not more than some of things we know the intelligence community has done or tried to do.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by albinofrenchy on Sunday September 24, 2017 @01:07PM (#15325519)
I'm not missing the point. I'm not saying it isn't happening because it's some crazy Tom Clancy plot. I'm saying the intelligence agencies have better ways of getting that data without also giving it to a ton of other bad actors
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by chiefalchemist on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:05PM (#15334137)
You should read Dragnet Nation. I'm not talking about bad actors. I'm talking about legit data collection and resale outfits.

We're being tracked. One click/visit at a time.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by coldtea on Sunday September 24, 2017 @08:05AM (#15324370)
>But what if DuckDuckGo provided a splitter-feed to the NSA? DuckDuckGo can claim without lying that they store no personal information, but that speaks nothing of a collaborating partner storing it.

Not to mention they don't need to provide anything themselves. Unless DDG has their own cables to users homes, after DDG connect to the internet backbone and before the user connects to DDG, the various agencies have all kinds of opportunities to get their feeds. It surely isn't SSL that will prevent them.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by Quiark on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:17AM (#15324780)
Can you be a bit more specific on your claim that the various agencies can break TLS?
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by djsumdog on Sunday September 24, 2017 @11:07AM (#15324974)
They don't have to DDG runs on AWS. In theory, court orders could grant access to the underlying VMs via Amazon without DDG even being notified.
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by sdwisely on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:23AM (#15324802)
They provide a tor hidden service.

3g2upl4pq6kufc4m.onion

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by KGIII on Saturday September 23, 2017 @06:40PM (#15322171)
If I were a conspiracy theorist, I'd think there was something nefarious going on when I see articles like this. What if the intended result is not actually browbeating DDG but, rather, making people think that DDG is no better than Google in the privacy arena so why invest the energy in switching?

If DDG isn't any better than maybe nobody is, so we might as well get used to the lack of privacy. Why switch if you're just going to get worse results, expend more energy, and not actually get increased privacy? You might just as well give up the struggle...

Fortunately, I'm not a conspiracy theorist,

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by api on Sunday September 24, 2017 @12:23AM (#15323293)
Conspiracy just means multiple people working together in secret toward some common goal. People do that all the time. Why just last week we had a closed door meeting at my company about how we might conspire to create more interest in the user community for our product. That's a conspiracy.

Of course there are nutty conspiracy theories but there are nutty math and physics papers too. I feel like the blanket ridicule of any notion of conspiratorial action is meant to discourage any form of investigative journalism or deeper probing below the surface of the narrative.

Your hypothesis is reasonable and plausible.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by KGIII on Sunday September 24, 2017 @02:07AM (#15323544)
Sorry, my post was mostly satire/tongue-in-cheek.

If I were in a position of power, and I knew that DDG was more difficult to get user data from, then I'd absolutely find a way to have articles published like this. I imagine that disenfranchised people are less likely to seek alternatives and are more likely to resign themselves to being monitored. It also seems like it would be more politically acceptable as well as offering a layer for plausible deniability.

Were I in charge, and a nefarious actor, I'd be slipping stories like this into the media quite frequently. It's low cost, low risk, and probably has a good chance at success with at least some percentage of the population.

I'm not sure I have the lack of ethics required to really do such a job. I'd like to hope that I'd resign before I helped do those sorts of things.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by raugustinus on Sunday September 24, 2017 @05:12AM (#15324005)
If you were in that position of power and had this article published you might not be doing such a great job. Streisand effect maybe?

Since this article I have, which was in the making for some time already, switched from Chrome to Firefox with duckduckgo as my main search engine. Added Disconnect and Ublock origin as well. And yes I realize it doesn't help against NSA tracking of a certian magnitude.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by nickpsecurity on Sunday September 24, 2017 @11:21AM (#15325017)
It's good to finally see someone else say that. If you want more data to use, I tried to hit this in a systematic way in a counterpoint to Bruce Schneier on psychology of conspiracy theory:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/06/the_psycholog...

I meant to turn that into a standalone essay, too, but forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by atomicnumber1 on Sunday September 24, 2017 @07:54AM (#15324342)
>Conspiracy just means multiple people working together in secret toward some common goal.

I checked various dictionaries available online and all of them have a common definition like "a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful."

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by ehsankia on Saturday September 23, 2017 @10:05PM (#15322858)
I don't get why Google is always singled out either. When was the last time Google leaked your data. As you said, very few actors can protect your data from the NSA, so the next best thing is to have it protected from hackers and leaks. Every other company out there keeps on getting hit left and right, but for their size, Google is only of the only company who has never messed up with user data, and you know they are probably one of the most targeted, especially by state actors such as china and russia.
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by mirimir on Sunday September 24, 2017 @04:39AM (#15323923)
As others have noted, Google gets singled out because they collect so much information.

It's true, however, that they don't want to share it. It may even be true that they specifically don't want the NSA etc to steal it from them. And indeed, I recall an unofficial Google response to Snowden's leaks:

> Fuck these guys.

> I've spent the last ten years of my life trying to keep Google's users safe and secure from the many diverse threats Google faces… But after spending all that time helping in my tiny way to protect Google -- one of the greatest things to arise from the internet -- seeing this, well, it's just a little like coming home from War with Sauron, destroying the One Ring, only to discover the NSA is on the front porch of the Shire chopping down the Party Tree and outsourcing all the hobbit farmers with half-orcs and whips.

https://www.theverge.com/2013/11/6/5072924/google-engineers-...

So anyway, DDG arguably gives users some privacy from Google. But neither has a better claim to providing privacy from the NSA etc. Indeed, maybe it's Google that does, given their greater resources.

If you want more than that, use some mix of VPNs and Tor. Or if you're not feeling lucky, stay off the Internet ;)

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by notenas2neon on Saturday September 23, 2017 @10:21PM (#15322908)
>When was the last time Google leaked your data[?]

According to the State of California Department of Justice [0], the last publicly acknowledged data breach from Google was March 9th, 2017. Before that it was August 10th, 2016, and before that March 29th, 2016.

[0] https://www.oag.ca.gov/privacy/databreach/list

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by scarhill on Saturday September 23, 2017 @10:47PM (#15323012)
According to the notification letters on that site, those three incidents all involve Google employees' information being leaked by third parties, not Google leaking users' data.

Here's a quote from one of them:

"We recently learned that certain hotel reservations made for Google business travel were among the many reservations affected by a security incident impacting a third-party provider’s electronic reservation system that serves thousands of travel agencies and hotels. This did not affect Google’s systems. However, this incident impacted one of the travel providers used by Googlers, Carlson Wagonlit Travel (CWT)."

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by yeukhon on Saturday September 23, 2017 @10:46PM (#15323009)
I'd say every single company sitting on billions of assets are on the target list. Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Uber, everyone (although Microsoft is the least attacked here). But the illusion here is we only see the big guys, we rarely question the smaller guys, unless someone publishes a CVE or publish a disclosure.

Many users are paranoid about ToS and how companies (esp the big guys) make money either by learning your behaviors (search preference, sites you visited) or selling your data to a partner (Foursquare, although they claim to only sell location data which are anonymous). We have a blind-trust with service providers. We let service providers to collect everything about ourselves, but internally they can decide whether to discard "sensitive data" early on or not during data processing (but web logs would have the trace).

Has anyone every inspect the traffic, or reverse the API in <your wearable device> (e.g. Fitbit?) What about file sharing companies? Are they storing your data in a secure way and without reading what's in your file? What about sites that let you compare prices across multiple stores? What about medtech startups? What about when the company is acquired?

Because the giants are more eye-catching, we don't see the smaller guys; but we are willing to give away sensitive and private data to the smaller guys because? If the argument is "well the big guys should have known better and have more resources to do the right thing", then I argue that by 2017 the new startups are doing the right things (not making the same well-known security flaws for example). I have doubt; I doubt many achieve 50% of what is on the imaginary checklist. The claim "we build MVP" is the equivalent of the big guys saying "we know what we are doing, don't worry."

No, we don't know better. No, your MVP should be secure enough so users can trust you. I almost never try a newly launched service because I really don't want to be a lab rat. I am sorry if that sounds cynical, but I don't trust myself doing everything right. If you let me choose between a new file sharing startup vs others, I'd go with either Dropbox, Google Drive or OneDrive (FWIW, Google is replacing Drive with a new service). Why? Because if the big guy is compromised, well, shit, thousands or millions will be affected. The least cynical version is, well, they are too big to do stupid things (of course not true in reality).

Our biases create illusions.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by epicide on Monday September 25, 2017 @10:55AM (#15330945)
As others have kinda pointed out: it's the amount of data they store.

I think it is less about who you should trust to do the right thing and more of how much you trust an individual group to be able and willing to maintain the security of the data they have.

That is to say: it is more about the ratio of <stored data>/<security of stored data> rather than either of those values.

Google stores more data than I personally trust anybody to be able to store. Largely because they make themselves a huge target.

Equifax is a great example of storing WAY too much data. Sure, their practices are to blame, but I'd argue that them storing half the information they do is better than doubling their security (whatever that means). This is due to the compounding effect of being a smaller target.

DDG at least claims to not store as much of that information.

> When was the last time Google leaked your data.

If Google has one major leak, does the historical quantity of leaks matter?

EDIT: more thoughts.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by bad_user on Sunday September 24, 2017 @03:00AM (#15323648)
Google has a vast number of security researchers hired. In terms of security, there's probably no other company that can do a better job.

That Google has your search or email data and that they can always sell it, or that the NSA has a direct link to them, those are separate discussions.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by sandworm101 on Saturday September 23, 2017 @04:48PM (#15321629)
Protection from the Nation State Actors cannot come from companies. One must implement protections on one's own client-side. Proper encryption always. Tor when needed. Software and, where possible, hardware only from trusted sources.
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by Mtinie on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:02PM (#15321702)
Even then the concept of "trusted sources" is a dubious one. A source only needs to be trusted until it sells you down the river.
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by xkarga00 on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:46PM (#15321933)
We need more than "trust". We need open software and open hardware.
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by katastic on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:34PM (#15321865)
So Equifax were good guys until they ditched all out data?
Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by bsder on Sunday September 24, 2017 @08:55PM (#15327355)
I care about "random idiot at NSA sitting in front of a computer being able to make my life miserable".

I don't care about "NSA has decided to invest $10 million to make me personally miserable." At that point, they will simply fabricate the evidence they need.

If someone at the NSA wants to come after me, I simply want someone to actually have to sign a piece of paper--cut a check, file a warrant, send a human being, etc.--rather than just write a script in Python.

If someone in a bureaucracy has to sign their name and take responsibility, I'm fairly safe. Simply the possibility that something might cause political fallout will stop 99.9% of all such actions.

Re:Duck Duck Go: Illusion of Privacy (2013) by goptimize on Saturday September 23, 2017 @09:06PM (#15322678)
If they use Amazon servers, NSA can get data from Amazon without dealing with DDG at all.