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Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by CJefferson on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:44PM (#15279377)
No, the W3C is the web. You'd be forking to what?

This was basically wanted by Firefox, Apple, Microsoft and Google. They are the modern web. Trying to go against them is how we ended up with XHTML, a standard no-one really wanted, or implemented.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by azakai on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:06PM (#15279583)
> This was basically wanted by Firefox, Apple, Microsoft and Google.

Not accurate. EME was created and driven by Google, Microsoft and Netflix, as you can see here:

https://www.w3.org/TR/encrypted-media/

Firefox opposed it very strongly, and only gave in and implemented it when it was clear that all other browsers were behind it - at that point the battle was already lost.

When the EFF says

> The W3C process has been abused by companies that made their fortunes by upsetting the established order, and now, thanks to EME, they’ll be able to ensure no one ever subjects them to the same innovative pressures.

It is safe to assume the companies the EFF refers to are Google and Microsoft.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by josteink on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:59PM (#15279516)
> This was basically wanted by Firefox, Apple, Microsoft and Google.

This was absolutely NOT wanted by Firefox.

They were the only browser to represent the users in this fight.

Don't put Mozilla in the same group as those other traitors.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by goialoq on Monday September 18, 2017 @06:39PM (#15280323)
Mozilla's users outvoted Mozilla staff, and Mozilla staff gracefully conceded that users are best served when they have the OPTION to consume DRM-controlled content or free content.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by wolfgke on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:03PM (#15279555)
> They were the only browser to represent the users in this fight.

They were folding, too.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by xeromal on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:12PM (#15279646)
If they didn't fold, they'd just lose more users to other browsers. Sometimes it's wise to retreat or lose a battle to stay in the fight.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Certhas on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:28PM (#15279763)
And they implemented it as strictly opt in (they ask before installing it), and fully user controlled:

"Firefox downloads and enables the Google Widevine CDM on demand, with user permission, to give users a smooth experience on sites that require DRM. The CDM runs in a separate container called a sandbox and you will be notified when a CDM is in use. You can also disable a CDM and opt out of future updates by following the steps below. Once you disable a CDM, however, sites using this type of DRM may not operate properly."

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by wolfgke on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:17PM (#15279691)
> If they didn't fold, they'd just lose more users to other browsers.

They rather lost a unique selling point. Not implementing EME/DRM is a form of protection of the user against malware.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by hollander on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:36PM (#15279838)
So what was their option? Refusing to implement DRM (as opt-in) would mean that the ignorant user wouldn't be able to see Youtube videos anymore. The result would be that these users would move over to Chrome, Safari or Edge. There was no alternative.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by sp332 on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:40PM (#15279877)
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by wolfgke on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:45PM (#15279924)
> They make EME-free builds. e.g. http://download.cdn.mozilla.net/pub/firefox/releases/55.0/

A well-hidden build of Firefox to silence the people who accuse the Mozilla Foundation of betraying their principles...

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by sp332 on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:53PM (#15279991)
Mozilla is very upfront about the fact that it goes against their principles. https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/05/reconciling-mozillas-missi... Anyway it's opt-in, it's easy to uninstall the one CDM it comes with, and it's fairly easy to stop it from even asking about downloading CDMs. The EME-free build just does all of that for you up front.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by andrepd on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:28PM (#15279760)
It is opt-in AFAIK.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by wolfgke on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:30PM (#15279772)
There is no option I have to opt in whether I want a malware interface (EME) installed in my browser or not.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by kibwen on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:54PM (#15280003)
Yes, there is an option, and it has been linked repeatedly in these threads. The irony being, of course, that if Firefox didn't yield to the other browser vendors in implementing EME they wouldn't have the marketshare to keep development going, which means there would be zero browsers rather than one that make it trivial to forgo DRM.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by jayshua on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:35PM (#15279823)
What makes EME a malware interface?
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by wolfgke on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:40PM (#15279885)
DRM is malware (I don't seriously believe I have to explain why) - so EME is a malware interface.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by jayshua on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:47PM (#15279942)
I'm completely unfamiliar the entire discussion (I've just ignored it in the past), and I don't actually know why you think that. Could you elaborate?
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by imtringued on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:43PM (#15280938)
A EME module is basically a proprietary closed source plugin just like silverlight and flash and shares the same potential security issues.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by acdha on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @06:06AM (#15283186)
That's a gross oversimplification: Flash and Silverlight were rich platforms with complexity on the same order as the entire browser. EME has a much narrower interface which provides stream decryption – it doesn't even have the video codec, whereas Flash/Silverlight had complex video, audio, image, PDF, font, etc. implementations with a long history of exploits.

This really matters because so many of those exploits relied on other features to actually run the payload. Not having any of those in the first place is a big attack surface reduction, even if the politics are legitimately debatable.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Dylan16807 on Monday September 18, 2017 @07:31PM (#15280609)
It makes your computer stop responding to your commands in a bunch of ways.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by bitmapbrother on Monday September 18, 2017 @06:43PM (#15280345)
>This was absolutely NOT wanted by Firefox. They were the only browser to represent the users in this fight. Don't put Mozilla in the same group as those other traitors.

But they ended up including DRM in their browser. So they're traitors and hypocrites, right?

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by NamTaf on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:07PM (#15280776)
You can still get the EME-free browser. They released both because ultimately, giving those who care a choice is easier than surviving once you alienate the legions of those who demand it for Netflix or the like.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by crabasa on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:48PM (#15279410)
The W3C is not the web. Look no further than the good work the WHATWG did to move the web forward while the W3C & Microsoft were holding the web back in the early 2000's.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by sgift on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:07PM (#15279591)
> Look no further than the good work the WHATWG did

And who was WHATWG? Oh right, exactly the same companies that now voted for DRM as W3C standard. And why could they do WHATWG? Because they are the vendors of the majority browsers.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by dannyobrien on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:21PM (#15279718)
WHATWG did not include EME in the WHATWG HTML living standard, and supported EFF's proposal to protect security researchers: https://blog.whatwg.org/drm-and-web-security

Ian Hickson also came out strongly against DRM when this whole debate started: https://plus.google.com/+IanHickson/posts/iPmatxBYuj2

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by epistasis on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:52PM (#15279446)
The W3C has pretty much zero power to prescribe what happens on the web.

Look at the history of their standards, and the direction that the web has actually gone.

The power for where the web goes is in the hands of web developers and browser developers. The W3C documents some things, but they are not a major player.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by nebabyte on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:56PM (#15279495)
> No, the W3C is the web.

"L'etat, c'est moi" - until a new state comes to power.

The web is its users.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by justinjlynn on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:46PM (#15279395)
Actually, no. The Web is more an API for browsers at this point than anything. The W3C is, well, secondary, if browser manufacturers get behind another body - it'll happen.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by hughw on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:40PM (#15279881)
W3C is not the web. Check out the history and motivation behind WHATWG. They led on HTML5, then W3C followed.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by hellbanner on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:32PM (#15279795)
Well, its corporations with money that make communication technologies.

The history of wide scale, maintainable, free speech just hasn't worked. Ever. Why should computers be any different?