First of all, I use Facebook in a similar way (dedicated email, sandboxed browser, external tracking disabled (I know it still tracks me internally), not entirely my real name, no mobile apps, all paranoia privacy settings on, don't really share anything). And I only signed up there a year or two ago. But Facebook absolutely helped my social (and even professional) life. Even if I can reach people by other means, it doesn't change the fact that they prefer to keep in touch with Messenger, we have our private group chats there. Facebook lets me keep up with cultural (art/music) events, and also local dev meetups. I have my current relationship thanks to Facebook as well (I met her in real life first, but we only started to hang out because I looked her up and added her on Facebook and we started chatting there). I even got my dream dev job accidentally, because of a Facebook share by an acquaintance. Buy/sell groups also got me a lot of good deals, including my current apartment.

That doesn't change the fact that, as a company, ethically, strategically etc. I despise Facebook. I hate their manipulative practices. Most of the information shared there is pure shit (but I can more or less choose not to follow it). Regardless, by not being there I'd be losing more than gaining.

Now, LinkedIn I detest even more, thanks to the unsolicited invites from strangers that I get to my private email, even though I haven't even registered there, and I have no intention of doing so.

It's 2017. Between aggregators, dedicated sites, instant notifications, apps, Calendar sync et all, we probably have 1000 more ways than every decade in the 20th century to keep up with cultural events and local dev meetups.

I don't think 60s', 70s and 80s culture and art events (and event goers) suffered because they didn't have Facebook to tell them... if anything, from concerts to art exhibition the scene was even more vibrant!

Yes, that's part of the problem. That's part of why so many people prefer to have one way of keeping up, and choose Facebook for it by default because that's what "everyone else" uses.

I understand that things happened before 21st century, obviously, there's still posters, word of mouth, newsletters (in some cases, but they're not that popular over here), but these days, at least where I live, event organizers are using Facebook as a core platform to spread awareness. I certainly didn't know about a lot of these events before I joined Facebook.

And there's events like bike rides, hiking trips etc. organized by individuals... on Facebook.

But if Facebook was around in the 60s, there would be no 60s -- the spirit I mean.

I stopped getting spam email from LinkedIn after I set up an account (which I never use).

usecases = ["group events", "messaging", "staying in touch with people", "networking", "checking in once a month", &c()];

singleUsecase = pickWhatevs(usecases);

otherStuff = pickNotWhatevs(singleUsecase, usecases);

responseStr = "Well, I only use it for " + singleCase + ". I rarely use it for " + otherStuff + "."

As a former employee you might have more insight than I do, but how exactly has a glorified message board which doesn't charge its users become one of the richest companies in the world?

Sure they're a bit interested in the fruit growing hobby and that network, but they're also very interested in the ways you "hardly use the site" and they're even more interested in the things your doing when you don't even know they're still watching you. Even more interesting, you're actions on and off their platform can be correlated with heavy users of the site to infer traits they'll assign to you and sell on, true or not.

At the end of the day, the way the species is evolving with the internet, giving someone permission to follow you around the web and collect that data on you is the same as giving them insights into your inner psyche, the majority of what composes your reality, and the things you value most in your life, among other things.

These are things we should have a right to offer explicitly, not implicitly surrender.

[edits to elaborate on a couple points and add helpers to the why I use FB excuse]

Because, as you just demonstrated with your programming example: For HIM it's a glorified message board. Other people may use it in completely different ways and appreciate it for them.

I'm not the greatest facebook-fan either, but I think you're really overstating the control they have over people's lives here and at the same time understating the value it can provide to people. Unless of course all people using facebook are just damn idiots and don't know what they're getting themselves into!

EDIT: 'control over people's lives' might be better phrased as 'knowledge about their activities/preferences'

And people will accept it because we're pragmatic. And those who don't just need to grow up and start pleasing the AI.

A whole new industry will pop up from the ones training nets in the first place. Hey do this and that and our calculations will read you better, you'll get the results you want. We just suggest you don't talk about these things at all, don't shop at these stores, don't have this name or be associated with that demographic ...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-23/google-wi...

Though I'm guessing that they are only now okay giving up on email data because they have so many other sources of tracking your behavior.

I invite you to read (or preferably watch) your Ibsen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Enemy_of_the_People

That's the annoying thing. We already had message boards! Except they were decentralized, you could register anonymously and the administrators often had more autonomy (e.g. not put up ads and tracking scripts). Now Facebook has eaten a bunch of that market, and so we're forced to choose between giving up those communities or submitting to the Borg. It's annoying as hell.

For what I see on Facebook or social network is : - look at me - post without arguing or even answer, discussion. - look at me - stalking - quote about life - game - cat meme

0% construction, information is not well organize, scrolling..

How do you know if you haven't even used them? Facebook is completely instrumental to my social life and I'm very happy with it. Also, what do you mean with "more direct means"? Is Facebook Messenger not direct enough?

The quote from me is probably too strongly worded on my part, but I really don't see the added value. You may have made it instrumental to your social life, but my personal opinion is the price is too high. Unfortunately, when the majority of people choose to pay the price, it switches from being a personal choice to being an expected exchange. This is fundamentally about the right to privacy and it's not something a rational person would trade away for something that can (and has been!) achieved without the terrible price tag.

Usually if something provides a high value, like a car, you invest in it so you can see the returns. My qualm is not with the messaging service per say (I take more issue with the mass posts people make about their kids or others without consent, I believe that's wrong and cheapens inter-personal relationships). I mean, you have to realize they take your keyups, they know when you've reworded before sending and they're tying what you might think of as a personal conversation to the valuable profile you're consciously helping them build and capitalize on.

I've been around a lot of people using messenger. I've found using the phone or email somewhat increases the likelihood of something tangible happening (general follow through) as well as thoughtfulness of the replies I receive. Obviously that's anecdotal and the jury's still out. I guess my question is, how can you assert Facebook would help someone's social life?

I'm not debating your happiness with it. I'm just a little surprised your so comfortable using it.

More direct means would include chatting in person, the proverbial snail mail (you got to admit, receiving a letter from someone you respect/love/h[oh]ld dear is great), phone call or text message. Except for the last one, each one contains a ton more social queues than a chat group.

I'm simply raising privacy concerns I have and I believe it affects us all. I was disappointed this model did not address it. Invasion of privacy, profiling and tracking are big issues in my opinion and I would be curious to know why you don't think they are worth mentioning.

I do think phone calls, and spoken word in general, are highly effective. You are not helping yourself socially by refusing to speak to people who are calling you and if none of your friends or loved ones call you, there is likely a problem (I don't know your exact circumstances). I also think it's a fair claim that people are much more likely to value a hand-written letter over a chat forum message. You are offering something tangible!

I'm just proposing alternatives to socialization on a platform like FB which really is, I think, hurting natural and more effective means of communication and self presentation. I'm not saying there isn't a good place and use for internet chatting and what-not, those are great social tools too.

Just to repeat, my main point is I don't think we should have our social lives commoditized. I do not think we should be profiled and tracked across the internet. I see this ending very badly. That's all.

> Invasion of privacy, profiling and tracking are big issues in my opinion and I would be curious to know why you don't think they are worth mentioning.

The thing is that they can do it. It's like saying people shouldn't listen to other people conversation in public. Sure it's "wrong" to do it, but you do know it may and will happen. The web is public, I'm not the only one that can your comment here and that's true for Facebook too.

I know what I post on the web, I know what I do on the web and I all consider them the same way I would do ANYTHING in public. I wouldn't share nude picture of me in a mall, at least if I were, I would be pretty sure that it's done in a relatively private means.

> I think, hurting natural and more effective means of communication and self presentation.

How can you declare it's more effective? I can organize events in a central place, way quicker and keep much more people involved in it that in any of the ways you talk about. You may be able to argue that it's not the most private, but that's not why I use Facebook.

> I see this ending very badly.

The good old slippery slope argument. I'm curious, what's the bad ending that you imagine?

I usually like to use this counter-argument over that one: Hitler didn't ever need social media to kill that many jews...

It's easy to manipulate people to hurt their community and go against what it's good for them. All you need is to control their fears. The funny thing your privacy fears is probably just as easy to manipulate. That's maybe what needs to be fixed, way more than anything else, though I would say that teaching people to be conscient of their actions and their impact is even better.

Plus, there's something tangible about a letter that gives it so much more charm. Of course, if I need to make plans or need to get a response promptly, I'll most likely use Facebook.

facebook itself is a different beast, aside from the event planning stuff it's pretty much just a bunch of "look at what people you vaguely know are doing" for me

I use the feed to keep track of artists and stuff like that, like when they post a new song. Other than that, not much.

I feel like you are from an older generation, not that there's anything wrong with it, but you probably no longer have the same needs as the younger generation. When I organize stuff, I don't always do it between 1 or 2 people. Once we were a dozen that went to an Escape Room, even more people were interested and even more were invited. It was barely organized days before. Sure it works coordinating through more direct means and people did that for a pretty long time, I feel like you had to when you had similar needs, but the thing is, there's a better tool for it nowadays which is Facebook. It's like saying you don't want to use the all good new framework because of the good old way that worked.

Also, it's partially true, people do mind being in direct touch, we had some people that just disappear from our events (and some of them came back using a pseudonym later on) because of that reason. It's a central way to put everything if something goes bad, this is where it's updated if anything changes. Again, it's like saying you don't need a bug tracker because you can easily do it using emails. Yeah, it works, but it tiresome to do it that way.

I personally don't care much about this tracking. It tracks mostly what I give it. I know what it does and I work with it. I'm not afraid of personalized offer, it's all good, offer me a new laptop for a great price, I would be happy to take a look and buy it if it does fit my criteria and my needs.

I don't want Facebook to know that I'm interested in software engineering? Well, maybe that was dumb to tell it in the first place (and in that case, I would use more private means to follow that passion).

I spend 0.0 hours per week on facebook, and 0.25 hours per week coordinating activities directly.

How much time do you spend on facebook?

FWIW, some do. The only reason I signed up for Facebook was to have an asynchronous medium in which people can "contact" me, instead of trying to meet up, call my phone, text me, etc. I use Google+ for sharing photos/updates with my family while I travel, and LinkedIn for recruiter fishing. I use each of the above at least a few times a week, but always out of necessity; I've set a pretty solid standard of "I may take a couple weeks to respond, but I'll always respond" which is so much nicer than being constantly interrupted by people reaching out through direct means.

Email was nice for this originally, but there's way less friction to contacting someone through FB than there is through email, and keeping social messages out of email keeps my inbox more manageable for productive uses without having to set up and maintain filters.

Of course, YMMV. But just remember not everyone likes/minds the same things. :)

Exactly this. FB is spying on me and selling this info to the highest bidder. Are you (yours.org)?

You're not alone. This is a key driver to the popularity of messaging apps, in particular group chats.