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Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by djsumdog on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @11:28AM (#15239181)
I've been saying this for years. "The CIA created ISIS. Not just funded, but created the situation where such organizations could come up."

I constantly get criticized for this. "No, of course America isn't funding ISIS. We're fighting them." I then talk about The Bay of Pigs, the 1973 Coupe in Chile, Iranian Contras, The School of the Americas ... a criminal rap sheet that shows a pattern of sociopathhy by the US government -- and Syria fits that pattern: arm ISIS, bomb Assad and then bomb ISIS too .. we're creating and fighting all the wars.

I'm not surprised, but the majority of Americas would be .. if this appeared on CNN, NPR or a major media outlet. Otherwise it's "fake news."

When sales for 1984 went up after the Trump election, I was greatly disheartened. It meant the current administration had commandeered the minds of people to think that now was the age of Orwell, when in reality, we've been in 1984 long before I was born and long before my parents were born.

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by ep103 on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @12:03PM (#15239594)
You're right about ISIS for what its worth. The documentary "The Power of Nightmares" is a really good introduction to the background of that whole story for people who criticize you on the topic. Its very accessible and well researched (and from the BBC, so reputable).

But yeah, the short and long of it is that Donald Rumsfeld specifically disbanded the Iraqi command structure after the invasion, against President Bush's orders, because he believed (correctly) that it would result in large groups of them forming armed militias and start a middle eastern uprising. His belief, thanks to the teachings of his mentor Leo Strauss, was that without a mortal philosophical enemy the United States could stay at perpetual war with, the US, buoyed by continued economic prosperity, would continue drifting towards liberal ideals like economic, social and racial equality, and away from things like duty, honor, and fear of god; which in his mind, made America great.

In short, they believed the fear of communism is what kept Americans in line, and that the progress of the 60s, once that fear started collapsing, was something that needed to be avoided at all costs from occurring again. So they needed a new enemy, even if we had to make it ourselves.

Rumsfeld even, at one point, came out and explicitly said that that was his goal at the time, so its not even a conspiracy. Its publicly stated fact, that gets little to no news coverage.

Its like when Dick Cheney came out in an interview over the biopic he published, and admitted on air that the reason he was for torturing people [paraphrased]: "had nothing to do with intelligence. If we tortured suspected terrorists, no one would ever be able to call the Republican party weak on terrorism". He literally admitted to a war crime, and nothing happened.

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by arethuza on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @01:10PM (#15240307)
"because he believed (correctly) that it would result in large groups of them forming armed militias and start a middle eastern uprising"

Do you have a reference for that - because that is one hell of a strong accusation?

NB Not saying that it would surprise me, but I've never heard that particular accusation before. Though it does sound worryingly like the claims that US money indirectly funded the Taliban via Pakistan - allegedly without the US knowing but that is a remarkable thing not to know....

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by ep103 on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @02:17PM (#15241026)
Watch the power of nightmares. I confess I'm not 100% confident that that's where I remember that quote from (Its been a few years now), but its a good bet.
Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by arethuza on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @02:18PM (#15241036)
Thanks - I'm a huge fan of "Bitter Lake" so that gives me something else to watch.
Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by Swizec on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @12:30PM (#15239885)
> He literally admitted to a war crime, and nothing happened.

I thought the idea was that you call them terrorists specifically so that they’re not official enemy combatants and the Geneva convention doesn’t apply?

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by ep103 on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @02:20PM (#15241062)
He got away with it for a lot of reasons, ranging from issues with the term War Crime, to the fact that the US doesn't support the ICC, to the fact that he was a VP, etc, etc. I'm not surprised he avoided prison; rather, I was saddened by the lack of complete moral outrage after he made such a statement.
Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by pm90 on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @12:40PM (#15239982)
No, its because it was terrorists that caused 9/11. So, you could justify anything if you just said: we're doing it because they're "terrorists".
Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by totalZero on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @11:32AM (#15239225)
Setting aside every other part of this discussion:

I don't think a state actor can be accurately described as sociopathic. The expectations and interactions among nations are fundamentally different from those among people.

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by duncanawoods on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @11:49AM (#15239436)
Can you make an argument for believing that?

Using psychological terms in a strictly behavioural fashion for groups/countries seems to me to not just be an analogy but capturing the essence of what is observable. Many of the concepts are similar e.g. identity, cooperation, aggression, lying, betrayal, self-preservation, fear etc.

You can defend this further and claim that even when examining an individual, you will see conflicting identities and traits that resembles the conflict in a group rather than a constant, simple, single identity. The underlying truth appears to not be not that a group does not have psychological behaviours its that a single simple human identity doesn't really exist and is always an emergent property of some collection of heterogeneous smaller parts identities/modes/processes etc.

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by CapitalistCartr on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @11:50AM (#15239448)
Then why is it so many other countries don't act as we do? USSR under Joe did; that's hardly a ringing endorsement. Any Scandinavian country would be a good counter argument. Finland has withstood Soviet/Russian intimidation for more than seven decades without running around instigating insane, right-wing police states across the Globe.
Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by keldaris on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @12:18PM (#15239734)
> Then why is it so many other countries don't act as we do?

That's simple: they're weak and can't get away with it. The baseline conduct of nation states is basically that of fairly rational psychopaths, capable of evaluating what they can get away with. Deviations from that norm are mostly reminiscent of irrational psychopaths. Anyone who expects "moral", "just" or "trustworthy" behavior from a nation state is just out of their mind.

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by dragonwriter on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @12:27PM (#15239842)
> Finland has withstood Soviet/Russian intimidation for more than seven decades without running around instigating insane, right-wing police states across the Globe.

Some would say “submitted to” rather than “withstood”; heck, accommodating a powerful neighbor out of fear and inability to effectively resist is called “Finlandization” for a reason.

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by alrs on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @01:13PM (#15240342)
Finland's foreign policy was benign, but its domestic policies weren't pretty.

Eugenics: http://eugenicsarchive.ca/discover/tree/530b988476f0db569b00...

Kekkonen and the collapse of democracy: http://www.nytimes.com/1973/01/18/archives/finns-extend-pres...

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by anigbrowl on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @01:15PM (#15240367)
Inability, to a large extent. The relative youth of the US in cultural terms. the simplicity of dealing with a small biddable tyranny rather than a large messy democracy that might not agree with us. The Dictator's Handbook by Bueno de Mesquite & Smith does a good job of breaking down the utilitarian calculus of foreign policy decisions.
Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by refurb on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @03:09PM (#15241554)
Finland did align themselves with Nazi Germany early in WW2 in their effort to counter Soviet actions.

Only after they came to a stalemate and peaceful agreement with the USSR did they split from the Axis and align with the Allies.

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by rebuilder on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @12:45PM (#15240039)
Most states lack the means to throw their weight around like the USA does.

Interstate relations are what anarchy looks like.

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by stemc43 on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @11:50AM (#15239439)
If you really look at human interactions they are exactly same as nation - level ones: constant fight for individual success with thinly cover of "moral values".
Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by vosper on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @11:44AM (#15239391)
Nations are just groups of people, but I agree with you. I'm not generally in favour of applying terms like sociopathic to large groups.
Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by ellius on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @11:51AM (#15239460)
Saying anything is "just a group" of its constituent parts is misleading and incorrect. Behaviors emerge at system levels that are not present among individual "parts."
Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by mythrwy on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @12:46PM (#15240047)
There are a number of groups that benefited from ISIS being in the area.

Certainly Iran and Russia getting a poke in the eye probably wasn't a bad thing from the CIA's perspective but they were probably not the only (or even main?) players. More like the gun store and some advisory support. For the other suspects we need only look for the folks who benefited from a buffer between Russia and Iran and their own states and a proxy army keeping Iranian/Syrian/Russian forces tied down. The whole thing is pretty inexcusable though and the people responsible are a level of criminal IMOP. It also appears the scheme isn't going to work out long term and Iran and Russia will continue to have influence in the region. Which given the behavior of our "friends" in the area I can't say I feel terrible about. But I'm probably not looking at it through a geopolitical chess perspective but more a perspective of ruined lives and societies and the spread of extremist ideology.

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by iovrthoughtthis on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @12:18PM (#15239735)
We've always been at war with Eastasia
Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by shitgoose on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @12:33PM (#15239911)
thank you for proving GP point.

EDIT: "CNN says that we are at war with Eastasia. therefore we are at war with Eastasia."

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by rublev on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @11:51AM (#15239454)
>we've been in 1984 long before I was born and long before my parents were born.

Can you expand on this? Thanks.

Re:The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2B on Soviet-Style Arms... by kruhft on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @12:31PM (#15239889)
1984 was simply an extrapolation into the future from someone that already saw the story as a later progression of what is or what has been in societies. The powers that be have always 'watched', there have always been class systems (being a Party member or a Prole), and each class is always said to have it better than the rest, although each always wants to be on the other side, thinking it's better.

It's been this way a long time and didn't start with 1984. There's a saying the '1984 is not an instruction manual', but with it's great proliferation amogst all the great works, one has to wonder that it's spread through society can be thought of as an instruction book on how to lead a society into fear and oppression by claiming it is literature.