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Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by nostrademons on Monday September 04, 2017 @05:42PM (#15171035)
(I used to work on the webserver for Google Search. Left Google several years ago, have no more vested interest in them.)

The reason for the browser-sniffing in search is a combination of ease of testing + latency reduction. By supporting a known set of browsers, you can write a test plan for each and shard it out among contractors (or ideally, automate it with a Selenium config). Manual tests run on every release (2/week when I left, maybe more now), and automated tests run on every changelist (thousands/week), so you can see how adding additional browsers to the testing matrix can consume significant resources. Very often cutting-edge features will launch on Chrome only and then if users like them, they'll get ported over to all the other browsers. (Or, just as often, the project is canceled and the feature is unlaunched on Chrome a year later, which IMHO isn't a great habit on Google's part but it is what it is.)

If you're manually spoofing your user agent, then Google figures that you know what you're doing and it's "use at your own risk anyway", and that if you get a broken experience, your first thought will be to disable the user-agent spoofing.

Additionally, browser-sniffing lets you serve only the JS needed for that particular browser, and not all of the hacks/polyfills/bugfixes/workarounds needed for browsers that the user isn't using. This is probably less of an issue now that things are more standard, but when I started ('09), not needing to serve all of the IE6 workarounds when the user was on Chrome or Firefox saved a lot of latency for users that were on modern browsers.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by int_19h on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:39AM (#15173909)
The real problem here is optics. There are certainly many valid technical and business reasons to target specific browsers - we've heard them all back in the day when "Best viewed in Internet Explorer" was a standard disclaimer on more than half of all websites out there. That arrangement did not work to the advantage of either the users or Google, though. So Google invested significant resources in web standards and alternative browsers, breaking the Microsoft monopoly. But now that Chrome is rapidly approaching the position that IE held, the users and the web developers are getting a feeling of deja vu, and Google's behavior - however motivated - plays right into that.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by nialv7 on Monday September 04, 2017 @06:28PM (#15171230)
I interned at Google once. And the first thing they told us at the orientation is that they put the users first.

Is that a lie then? Because what you said seems to imply Google puts the convenience of the developers first.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by cbhl on Monday September 04, 2017 @11:21PM (#15172282)
Unfortunately, the part they didn't tell you was that you should put more users first before putting fewer users first. (This is what "impact" means on the job ladder.)

Given two otherwise equal tasks, if one helps 60M users and another helps 12M users, you are usually expected to work on the one that helps more users. And if a product develops too many bugs of the latter type (affects too few users to ever be prioritized above other work), it will usually get shut down.

Fixing bugs for one or two or even a hundred users doesn't scale, and Google wants to scale so it can live up to its "potential to improve the lives of millions of people". (If you ever work at or start an early-stage start-up, you want to be the opposite of this because Google can't; see Paul Graham's "Do Things That Don't Scale" essay.)

If you come back (for another internship or full-time), the Intern Host, Product Manager, Director, and/or VP Engineering in your management chain can provide more context on how to apply "put the users first" in your specific context.

There are times where I was expected to put IE 9/Win XP above Firefox because that would help more users. And yes, that sucks, both for me, and for Firefox users.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by ocdtrekkie on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @12:08AM (#15172453)
The issue with this, that you have to focus on the largest group of users so you can "improve the lives of millions of people" is that it doesn't make sense: Google has hundreds of billions of dollars in cash they literally can't decide how to spend.

Clearly, they have enough money to "improve the lives" of more people, so that answer doesn't satisfy. However, the idea that Google is first and foremost a business which makes money at any expense, and it isn't profitable to support a competitor's browser, does.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by cbhl on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @01:07AM (#15172674)
In my opinion, the engineers that work on Chrome are the saddest about Alphabet products that are Chrome-only, because it makes it harder to cooperate with Firefox, Edge, and Safari engineers on open web standards.

I disagree with the idea that it is unprofitable to not support competing browsers. Just look at United States v. Microsoft Corp.

But, as you say, Google is first and foremost a business. As a business, it has a process where, if you don't have impact, you get fired. There are lots of people who, if forced to choose between "deferring work on Firefox bugs" and "getting fired", would choose the former. I would rather that they didn't have to make that choice in the first place.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by ocdtrekkie on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @01:49AM (#15172809)
When I say profitable, I'm assuming someone factored in antitrust risk (an all-time low given our current policies here in the US, mind you), as well as the lost customer satisfaction, possibly revenue from users of those other browsers, etc. weighed across the cost of man-hours to support other browsers. Obviously, Google supports iOS quite well, because that platform brings with it a massive amount of users, and hence a massive amount of money.

And FWIW, I recognize that the engineers are usually not the same as the businesspeople who make the business decisions. :)

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by pgeorgi on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @08:31AM (#15174472)
> Google has hundreds of billions of dollars in cash they literally can't decide how to spend.

Those billions of dollars don't code for themselves. You need to hire more folks (yes, overtime is a thing at Google), you need to direct them to do the right things (means: more hiring), and more infrastructure. Besides the cafeterias which boil down to "even more hiring" (and why not, we did that twice in our thought experiment already) those devs need office space (of some kind), equipment and server time for testing their thousands of additional commits every week. And more server time to cover the additional test cases (eg. for additional browsers), so this is super-linear.

Given infinite dollars (or any reasonable approximation of that), the problem really is how to spend them without ending up finishing nothing because you've just invested them in a giant gridlock situation.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by askafriend on Monday September 04, 2017 @07:56PM (#15171582)
You have to look at opportunity cost. There is significant dev time that is spent supporting those configuration mixes that relatively few people will use.

If that dev time could be spent on other features that will be appreciated by more people, then that is a decision you can make while still adhering to the principle of "users-first".

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by andosa on Monday September 04, 2017 @10:16PM (#15172053)
So a multihundred billion dollar web company doesn't have the dev resources to support Firefox? Even though it already works when you spoof the agent string?
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by askafriend on Monday September 04, 2017 @10:45PM (#15172155)
Even with all the resources in the world, opportunity cost plays into every decision. To remove that context would be missing my point.

And as always, resources dedicated to a project are finite. The “X billion dollar company can’t do trivial Y thing” isn’t as straightforward as it seems and the argument rarely holds up to scrutiny in my opinion.

We’re missing a ton of internal context here, and to have a real discussion we’d need that context. Otherwise there are tons of valid reasons why the opportunity cost calculation might not have worked out.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by andosa on Monday September 04, 2017 @11:53PM (#15172404)
At some point you have to stop giving the benefit of the doubt. I draw the line where Google is unable to make a search page (that is making them the "x billion dollar" company in the first place) work with Firefox due to "lack of dev resources". Even though the only thing stopping the page from working in FF is a user agent check.

You are making exactly the same argument that Microsoft proponents were making when IE was bundled into Windows trying to push off other browsers. We don't have all the context, it must be too difficult to separate browser and OS code, etc

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by xerophyte12932 on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:58AM (#15173514)
I agree. At some point they should stop considering FF users as "well they aren't OUR users" in the cost benefit equation. They have to acknowledge that FF has a big chunk of the market and it should be part of the "Browsers we test on" list.

Considering the features work fine on FF, the actual costs for testing on FF should be minimal.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by kuschku on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:55AM (#15173988)
Well, they’re busy solving that with alternative solutions, by paying devs to secretly install Chrome with their software, and set it as default, and similar shady deals.

This is helpfully decimating the marketshare of anything that isn’t Chrome.

Even the VLC authors documented how Google tried paying them to ship Chrome as default with their installers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWx1P93nS0c&t=48s Google even tried

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by Fnoord on Friday September 08, 2017 @07:59AM (#15199547)
> Even the VLC authors documented how Google tried paying them to ship Chrome as default with their installers:

It doesn't mention when though. If its around the time where MSIE was dominant, well, I (FWIW) got less of a problem with that. Because -even with its profiling- Google Chrome is objectively a far, far better browser than MSIE ever was. And the Google of 2005 or 2010 is a better Google than Microsoft was in 1998 or 2002. Check the Halloween documents on that one.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by BurningFrog on Monday September 04, 2017 @11:36PM (#15172346)
It's still just a team of 5-50 human people working on each team, and they can only to do what they can do.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by fbender on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:12AM (#15173825)
The only real cost here is processor cycles for increased number of automated tests. You don't even need a part time job to maintain the extra tests (otherwise you'd do something wrong).
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by mcherm on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @03:53AM (#15173282)
If the company were worth a lot less it would be EASIER to support a different browser that already works.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by emmelaich on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @12:03AM (#15172436)
They are a multihundred billion dollar web company because they carefully manage their resources.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by _pmf_ on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @02:48AM (#15173013)
Dozens of product duds speak a different language.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by emmelaich on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @06:45PM (#15187748)
You mean discontinued duds? That reinforces my point rather than negates it.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by fbender on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:09AM (#15173808)
> There is significant dev time that is spent supporting those configuration mixes that relatively few people will use.

The issue I have with this is that too many are looking at percentage/share/ratio only. Yes, percentage matters. But absolute values matter just as much.

Or would you call a couple of million people "just a few"?

And nobody answer with "for Google, yes", that's completely besides the point.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by gwenzek on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @04:23AM (#15182014)
I'm a Firefox user working at Google. A lot of internal tools are Chrome only and when they get released to public they have a lot of technical debt to make it compatible with FF. The thing is engineer seems to always go for the latest internal library like Polymer which are only supported by Chrome. FF is working on supporting it which would probably improve the situation for a lot of Google product but it's taking time.

Also I've heard that Google is not so good at hiring front end engineer, as they are less likely to have the "inverse a binary tree" background.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by mining on Monday September 04, 2017 @06:33PM (#15171251)
Depends how you look at it. Dev time is a finite resource, and spending it on supporting a weird combo of user agent and browser seems likely to lead to less user utility.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by ricardobeat on Monday September 04, 2017 @08:00PM (#15171590)
Weird combo being Firefox with its default user agent..
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by squeaky-clean on Monday September 04, 2017 @09:29PM (#15171903)
Well, mobile Firefox which is much less common.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by kuschku on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:57AM (#15173994)
Or Desktop Firefox (~43% of German desktop market) in Google Inbox (during the launch), the new YouTube redesign, Hangouts, Allo, Earth...

Half of Google products either don’t work at all, or far worse, on one of the largest browsers out there.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by rasz on Monday September 04, 2017 @07:35PM (#15171499)
Adword/Doubleclick clients are their users, not you and me.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by reilly3000 on Monday September 04, 2017 @10:27PM (#15172088)
Ive been on both sides and used most google ad products. For a solid 1.5 years we had to use Opera to function in DBM due to Angular memory leaks. I live in DFP now and have to reboot my machine after 3-4 hours in their interface using Chrome and Safari. Maybe they are just a really, really unfathomably big company that always see as users do across every team.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by WalterSear on Monday September 04, 2017 @08:41PM (#15171753)
I'm not so sure. I've witnessed their adwords team plunder a startup marketing team's budget with false promises and bad advice.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by exikyut on Monday September 04, 2017 @09:28PM (#15171899)
Some extra detail (what's easy to share) could be very interesting.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by WalterSear on Friday September 08, 2017 @08:51PM (#15205002)
Sorry, I've really tried to come up with anything it seems reasonable to share more than:

'Google's ostensible adword assistance team were no more than glorified inside sales and, over the protests of the rank and file, bamboozled management into throwing over a $1 million dollars of good money after bad which helped sink the company'

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by OneMoreGoogle on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @12:07AM (#15172447)
Xoogler here, worked there for 18 months circa 2015.

> And the first thing they told us at the orientation is that they put the users first.

This is the company line, but the truth is that Google no longer knows itself. The orientation was designed in an era where Google was growing rapidly. The fear was that the early company culture of mutual trust and so on was likely to be diluted by the influx of new hires, so let's administer a proactive cultural injection.

But the reality today (err, 2015) is that the Google culture is no longer monolithic. Even basic day-to-day processes are different between Chrome and Android and Google and X and probably other teams I wasn't exposed to. The orientation has now become counter-productive for a large subset of the engineers, because it sets expectations wrong.

Examples: "Every engineer has access to all the source code." Or "no company code may be stored locally on a laptop." Or "every change must be code reviewed." These were company policies that were routinely violated by individual teams, which I only learned after daring to ask "how the heck are you getting your JOB done?"

Does Google "put the users first?" Depends on the org. In my admittedly brief tenure there, the most important consideration was internal politics, followed by "partner" and "ecosystem" concerns. Users registered but only distantly, mainly because we didn't expect many of them.

I think Modern Google can be best summarized with a company-wide goal of "be the most." Google Search as the most-used search, Android as the most-used OS, Chrome as the most-used browser, etc. If your revenue is based on page-views, and page-views are based on click counts...

"Most" is different from "best."

Edit: I feel obligated to clarify how the "we didn't expect many users" comment meshed with the "be the most" principle. I was a software engineer in a hardware org (think Pixel). The point of high-end hardware like Pixel was not to dominate the market, but instead be a prestige product that moves expectations. By building a MBP-level laptop, Google could demonstrate that ChromeOS is not just for throwaway laptops, and thereby make ChromeOS viable on its partners high-end hardware. Being too successful was an anti-goal, because it risks scaring off Samsung and the like.

The hope was not to single-handedly dominate a la Apple, but rather to foster the "ecosystem." As to users, well...they'd be better served indirectly by a robust ecosystem. Or at least that was the hope.

You'll notice that Google does not build low-end hardware, with the notable exception of Chromecast, which is another story.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by kuschku on Monday September 04, 2017 @06:05PM (#15171119)
> If you're manually spoofing your user agent, then Google figures that you know what you're doing and it's "use at your own risk anyway", and that if you get a broken experience, your first thought will be to disable the user-agent spoofing.

Actually, some browsers, including Firefox Mobile, now spoof the user-agent by default on some sites, because of Google's broken systems.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by wilun on Monday September 04, 2017 @06:48PM (#15171305)
Web history repeats over and over.

This might lead to an even more interesting browser UA string in the future.

Like "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/60.0.3112.113 Safari/537.36 MOZILLA IS FUCKING WRITTEN AT THE BEGINNING ANYWAY POOR SUCKERS!"

10 years latter, Firefox will take over the world again (when people will have enough of calling Google evil all day without doing anything...), and that part will again be engraved as a useless appendix, with an additional From_Google_The_Previously_Too_Big_To_Care_Much_About_Big_Browsers_Company at the end if you use their browser of that day.

What is sad is corporation doing so much evil they do not even have the time to see the history repeating itself, and the absurdness of their seemingly reasoned development approach (they think...)

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by dralley on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:05PM (#15180651)
Unfortunately, I find this unlikely for one simple reason. Back when Firefox first took over during the worst days of Microsoft's complacency/fuckery with Internet Explorer, a significant proportion of web users were techies, or people who were in close proximity to techies. A browser like Firefox could win based on technical merits and word of mouth.

Nowadays, not only do a significant portion of the population not know or care what the difference is, they just use Chrome because "Google" and "the internet" are indistinguishable.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by Fnoord on Friday September 08, 2017 @08:08AM (#15199577)
> Nowadays, not only do a significant portion of the population not know or care what the difference is, they just use Chrome because "Google" and "the internet" are indistinguishable.

I hear the same is true about Facebook.

Yet both cannot be logically true, and Facebook doesn't make their own browser (though their app does use an embedded version of Chrome).

Imagine seeing "the internet" like a gigantic bubble bath. There's some very large bubbles, like Google, Facebook, and Microsoft till some extend. Many can overlap, touch each other. Some small ones get absorbed in larger ones. Some are more omnipresent than others. But right now, there's still other, smaller ones, and new internet-related startups exist every day (little bubbles). But not all of the small or medium bubbles become large ones.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by sli on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:10PM (#15179151)
It's worth noting that the Mozilla at the beginning doesn't really mean anything anymore. It came around when Netscape was released, IE then spoofed it to get around forced redirects (according to MS), and that was that. Now every browser says it.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by Endy on Monday September 04, 2017 @06:33PM (#15171252)
This strikes me as both a bad sign about Google's direction and Mozilla's willingness to accept that without publicly calling them out as Vivaldi just did.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by fbender on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @08:32AM (#15174477)
Mozilla did multiple times and is doing it, sometimes even doing the work that Google is supposed to do (see e.g. the Webcompat project [1]). The point is, this problem is basically unsolvable without having the reach of Google and thus everone (incl. Microsoft!) is forced to spoof the UA.

See also https://webcompat.com/

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by Endy on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:22AM (#15175444)
No company is "supposed" to do anything in my eyes; and I'd rather if they all did a lot less that wasn't defined as "produce this one very specific product that does one thing well". If anything, the agencies that are supposed to do anything for the infrastructure of the Internet are the various governments and the UN, to support an open Web. The problem is that at present the US, UK, Russia, China, North Korea, and several other key nations are trying to destroy the open Web, so it falls to companies, who are better off setting up their own walled gardens and forcing every user into the digital equivalent of the old mining company towns.

We need to stop bending to any of these groups just because they're "the big guy". If the largest Web company is building "free" and "open" stuff in an anti-competitive manner, then make sure that's painfully obvious to the end-user, make it public (i.e. an NYT article's a nice start) and then file federal lawsuits, calling on users as witnesses. The people of America beat the Robber Barons before, I don't understand the reason why we are so unwilling to do so now that they've moved to the Web. Stop spoofing, stop capitulating, stop compromising, and start fighting back.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by fbender on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:36PM (#15179330)
So you're saying Google and the likes should ignore the very principles of the web that made them successful and even possible unless they're sued or regulated? That they can do whatever the freak they want without respect towards the environment (meaning both the web and economical/legal/political environment) they operate in? That's how you destroy ecosystems, economies, even political unions.

That's probably my biggest grief with many big companies today (and probably most big companies ever), the lack of respect and decency (in general). The few big tech companies I see that show a decent amount of respect (but still a long shot from perfect) are either run by Elon Musk or Apple, with Microsoft slowly but steadily digging themselves out of their rabbit hole.

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by Endy on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @11:52PM (#15181081)
I genuinely believe that the government should have long since stepped in and closed them for anti-competitive behavior, back when this all started. The way things are currently though, there's no onus on the company to be a good actor, when bad acting gets them higher market share and thus higher revenue. Hence, they're not "supposed" to do anything. But I also believe that Google, as a company, should be allowed to develop a search engine, and that's it, everything, end of story, finito, no additions substitutions or refunds. That search engine might be a damn good search engine and have an absolutely mind-boggling database, but that's all. Maybe also the focused searches like Images, Shopping, and Video. When you get to Maps, Mail, and Voice, those should be separate entities owned by people not involved in Google, not invested in Google, and who do not have a managing stake in Google whatsoever.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by bzbarsky on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @12:03PM (#15176489)
The problem with filing lawsuits is that "anti-competitive behavior" is typically not treated as illegal by recent US courts unless there's demonstrable consumer harm in the form of higher prices. Which there is not with products that are distributed for free...
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by forapurpose on Monday September 04, 2017 @06:03PM (#15171106)
> you can see how adding additional browsers to the testing matrix can consume significant resources

Google has the resources to test all the browsers it wants to. Perhaps part of the reason that companies with their market power tend to act this way is that serving other browsers becomes a low priority, and why should we help the competition anyway?

Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by vram22 on Monday September 04, 2017 @07:10PM (#15171402)
I was just going to ask why search should be browser-specific, until I read your last paragraph.
Re:“Google: it is time to return to not being evil” by fbender on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @08:42AM (#15174534)
Try progressive enhancement, or at least graceful degradation. Displaying a freakin' search field shouldn't be that hard.

And finally, why not load the necessary polyfills and fixes on demand? When the old/slow browsers need time to get ready, a few hundred milliseconds more or less don't matter.