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Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by rectang on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:15PM (#15118795)
And/or maybe Navy higher-ups, having resolutely learned nothing from the airline industry and crew resource management, pretend that there is no such thing as sleep deprivation.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by komali2 on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:35PM (#15118948)
Culture of self flagellation. Somehow the finance industry, Japan, and Taiwan all still haven't learned from this. From the way my investment banker roommate talks about it, they almost seem to get off to it.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by CobrastanJorji on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:10PM (#15119201)
Same thing happens with doctors in the US. Doctors should know that after the first 12 hours, the doctor's not as good at doctoring anymore.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by wpietri on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:24PM (#15121872)
Yes. Although in talking with doctor friends, it turns out there's an interesting counter-force. A major source of errors is handoffs.

I've certainly seen this when in the hospital with family; new doctors would frequently ask me for historical information, including about what other doctors had said or done. I was fine giving it, but what if I hadn't been there?

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by dx034 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @07:41AM (#15123588)
Do they work with checklists? That seems to be the number one reason why crews in aviation can work with such low error rates. Handoffs with strict checklists would probably cause lower error rates.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by LeifCarrotson on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @08:48AM (#15123901)
Yes, they do have a lot of checklists, but it's one thing to create a checklist for an airplane with very strict requirements for validation and maintenance and another to create a checklist for a human being.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by wpietri on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @09:13AM (#15124000)
As others mention, there's a big push towards checklists. (Note: they only work if they are bottom up, not top down.) But aviation mechanics work on something that is heavily standardized, and they get to shut down the thing they are working on, which eliminates a time dimension to the problem. Neither is true for people, so checklists aren't really the solution to the information-handoff problem in medicine.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by insomniacity on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @09:56AM (#15124266)
Can you expand on top down vs bottom up? Do you literally mean reading from the bottom of the page, or starting with the most granular items and decreasing granularity?
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by wpietri on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @10:14AM (#15124392)
Sorry, I mean in an organizational sense. If managers tell workers "Here are checklists! Now follow them!" then they aren't as effective in improving quality as workers saying, "Let's collaborate to make sure we are doing procedure X well. How about a checklist?"

Checklists are an easily observable symptom of an team drive for improvement of outcomes. But you can't reverse that and plop down checklists that are used under threat.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by komali2 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @11:47AM (#15125075)
I don't know much about how hospitals work, do doctors even have "managers?" I would figure the doctors would be the ones coming up with and using the checklists.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by nradov on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @02:15PM (#15126392)
It's complicated. Doctors employed by hospitals report to two sets of managers. There are other doctors who serve as medical department heads and the chief of medicine. But those doctors are also accountable to non-physician business managers for administrative and financial issues. And then independent self-employed doctors may have privileges at the hospital and see some patients there but don't have managers in the traditional sense.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by b4ux1t3 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @08:50AM (#15123908)
Crap, I listened to a podcasts sometime last year about how using checklists in a medical setting decreased errors by a ridiculous amount.

I'm going to try to find it. But, if I don't, you got the gist of it:

Have a checklist, and stick to it. Don't expect one person, or even multiple people, to remember all of the steps off the top of their head.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by zimpenfish on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @09:07AM (#15123973)
Possibly talking about "The Checklist Manifesto" - http://atulgawande.com/book/the-checklist-manifesto/

It's an -excellent- book about the application of checklists to error reduction etc.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by b4ux1t3 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @01:10PM (#15125806)
That's exactly it. I knew it was something based on a book. I've updated my comment below, if anyone is looking for the specific radio show about it.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by Pharylon on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @09:37AM (#15124153)
If you find it, post it so I can listen.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by b4ux1t3 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @01:07PM (#15125774)
I'm having a bear of a time trying to figure out what podcast it was. It might even have been a YouTube video. I've been going through different permutations of search terms to find it.

I'm worried it might have been .NET Rocks![1] They have a great podcast, but their episodes aren't indexed by Google because of their website structure.

I'm gonna keep looking, and even check my home computer's history when I get home tonight, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Someone a bit above linked to a book that I'm pretty sure was the impetus behind the podcast I listened to, so it might be worth giving that a read.

[1] https://dotnetrocks.com/

EDIT: HA! I found it! It was actually in the press section on the book's web page.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1222261...

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by dv_dt on Monday August 28, 2017 @05:48PM (#15120357)
The discussion about work hours here typically seems to put effectiveness after 4-6 hours as dropping off for programming, for pilots regulations allow 8 work hours (with 10 required hours off, and at least 8 of those consecutive uninterrupted sleep). It makes one wonder at the working conditions of doctors and sailors.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by JBlue42 on Monday August 28, 2017 @08:22PM (#15121233)
Toss in architects, visual effects artists, kinda of whatever job you want in the US, especially if there's no history of a union.

As someone else said, there's a lot of ego involved too. Given that a lot of it is "brainwork", it's the only physical way they might be able to feel they're testing themselves against something.

Most of it in those jobs is just production-churn and an attempt by the higher-ups to save money on things that a) were bid low and b) have shitty margins.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by DontGiveTwoFlux on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:43PM (#15119449)
Medicine as well. Medical residents can have shifts that are 24 hours long.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by theBobBob on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @03:28AM (#15122714)
Recently enough a group of doctors went on strike with perhaps one of the most reasonable demands I have ever heard. They didn't want to continue to do shifts that were over 24 hours long!
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by mavhc on Monday August 28, 2017 @05:44PM (#15120331)
Well, as long as they only let people with jobs that can kill people be sleep deprived, it'll be ok
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by mikeash on Monday August 28, 2017 @07:06PM (#15120893)
I understand that medicine is tricky because the handoff from one doctor to the next can be dangerous for patients. You have to balance continuity with exhaustion. That's not to say that they necessarily have the right balance now, but it's a hard problem.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by arjie on Monday August 28, 2017 @07:22PM (#15120981)
I've heard doctors say this, but they never cite evidence. But there is a wealth of evidence that says that doctor performance drops significantly with motor performance being harmed so much as to increase the number of errors and excess movements. I'll add the citation at the end, but it's not about the single study; it's about the fact that there is little evidence to the contrary and lots of evidence saying it's the case. If this were a drug, we'd be prescribing it every which way.

And most importantly, know that this is not necessary. American doctor supply is restricted by the AMA. America could suck the best doctors out of many other nations if it so desired and its healthcare practitioners would be better rested, more mentally well, and far less error prone.

http://www.bmj.com/content/323/7323/1222.1.short

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by brownbat on Monday August 28, 2017 @10:32PM (#15121700)
> I've heard doctors say this, but they never cite evidence.

Seems pretty well researched by a quick google. Maybe they're eliding the support not because it's an assumption, but because it's so thoroughly established they take it for granted?

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1405556#t=article...

https://psnet.ahrq.gov/primers/primer/9/handoffs-and-signout...

...

> But there is a wealth of evidence that says that doctor performance drops significantly with motor performance being harmed

That's true too, but I worry you're trying to rebut (X & Y) with evidence for Y.

If we find ourselves slipping into a battle of emphasis, maybe we face a problem of optimization?

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by arjie on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @02:30AM (#15122503)
From what I'm seeing, your hypothesis about this being a question of optimisation seems well supported. I worry that medical professionals resist changes here out of cultural belief or a resistance to process. That wouldn't be without precedent. Even something as well-established as washing hands between patients isn't done without explicit process (compliance is near 13% without explicit reinforcement for something that everyone learns the legend of Semmelweis for), and surgeons refuse even _private_ outcomes tracking.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by brownbat on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @06:43AM (#15123370)
Agreed, I can't know from first principles if the right shift length is 4 or 8 or 30. I'm sympathetic to your suggestion that it would be a surprising coincidence if doctors landed on the perfect number through historical accident. Maybe they have a feel for safety in shift length, but they don't in other areas like washing, so maybe not.

It probably varies by specialty and even individuals, probably a monster of a problem.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by scarmig on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:45PM (#15119013)
Do you think tech in Silicon Valley is somehow above that, though?
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by komali2 on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:31PM (#15119353)
Maybe? I've only been here about 2 years. First half was a bootcamp, which while intense certainly allowed for enough sleep (I would leave the bootcamp at 8pm, get home ~9, gives me an hour to relax, wake up at 7, and commute for an 8am arrival).

Second half has been at a company with a very pro-family-time CEO, and as a bachelor that just means a lot of time to explore this awesome new city :) So I haven't yet experienced the "utter madness startup" I guess?

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by bdunbar on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @12:19AM (#15122049)
They forget their own history, too.

A battle in 1942 was lost, badly, because the USN crews were zonked from a routine that gave them almost no chance for sleep.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by arethuza on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @04:14AM (#15122862)
Speaking of WW2 I've seen claims that one of the factors that helped the RAF win the Battle of Britain was there culture of pilots taking time away from the battle to rest up, relax and generally recover in between periods of intense fighting. e.g. "Talking shop" was definitely frowned on in a culture of apparent gentlemanly amateurism.

The Luftwaffe was more "professional" and worked their crews much harder and didn't take time to relax and had a culture of focusing 24 hours a day on the job.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by bdunbar on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @06:38AM (#15123356)
Interesting. I'm not sure I could do that: I'd want to talk shop, badly.

I read - years ago - that the most active combat was in the area around London. Not a small area, but it allowed RAF to move squadrons to lower threat areas for reconstitution and rebuilding before rotating them back to a hot area.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by drblast on Monday August 28, 2017 @05:50PM (#15120369)
My experience in the Navy made me lose all respect for the "leadership" there. It's a place where careers are established by doing everything except that which involves any actual thought or problem solving.

The culture is risk-averse to a fault, but at the same time have nearly zero capability to accurately asses risk or fix problems beyond punishing people when things inevitably go wrong.

Official "risk assessments" are performed before every dangerous undertaking, with numbers that are pulled out of someone's ass, along with additional "risk mitigation" numbers that are also pulled out of someone's ass so that leaders have cover when an accident happens. "We performed all the necessary risk assessments and were still a go."

Let me give you an example. Underway replenishment is when one ship will pull alongside a supply ship and transfer fuel and supplies from the supply ship. It's very dangerous because the ships are within 300 feet of each other for hours on end.

A risk-assessment is done and briefed the night before. Those are a PowerPoint presentation with a grid of things that can go wrong on the Y-axis. There are two columns, "risk" and "mitigation," and in line with each disaster are the probability conflated with the severity of that happening. Not actual numbers, just words like, "severe," "marginal," "likely," etc. Those are color-coded between red and green.

One of those things is always "crew preparedness" or similar. The risk of having an unprepared crew that didn't get a lot of sleep is shown as, for example, "severe" and colored red. The briefer will say, "well this is a severe risk, so we're making an announcement that everyone needs to get plenty of sleep tonight and that mitigates that risk down to "tolerable."

Actually this is more technical than what actually happens most of the time, which is that you'll hear things like, "we've mitigated the yellow risk down to a green." The entire ship's company of NCO's and officers will watch that presentation and nod their heads along. There is never one of these that results in a decision not to do something.

And there you have it. I've taken you through the entire risk mitigation strategy for the Navy, that happens nearly every day.

Does anyone know the actual probabilities of disaster? If so, they're not saying. Are they changing existing procedures or spending additional money to fix problems based on actual numbers? Hell no.

Really severe problems are dealt with in the following manner; a "zero tolerance" policy for that problem existing will be created, and when disaster strikes, it's a career-ending event for whatever scapegoat is standing there. Problem solved!

By the way, don't join the Navy.

EDIT: Also, the "too much technology" portion of the article is laughable. Part of the problem is that technology that the rest of the world uses to avoid these sorts of things is seen as anathema to the luddite SWO community, and rather than embrace anything that could help automate error-prone tasks, they pay lip service to it and continue doing extraordinarily stupid things for tradition's sake.

Aircraft carriers are driven by issuing voice commands to (mostly undertrained) helmsman in an environment where any additional noise could result in a misunderstood command and disaster. Or the helmsman gets tired of standing for a five hour watch every day and accidentally turns left instead of right like she's told. Imagine driving a car by telling the driver what to do from the passenger seat. Not just a "turn left up there," but "turn the wheel 15 degrees to the left, ok, now turn the wheel back to center, ok, now turn it back three degrees to the right because you oversteered..." It's insane.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by dctoedt on Monday August 28, 2017 @07:53PM (#15121116)
> Aircraft carriers are driven by issuing voice commands to (mostly undertrained) helmsman in an environment where any additional noise could result in a misunderstood command and disaster. ... Imagine driving a car by telling the driver what to do from the passenger seat. Not just a "turn left up there," but "turn the wheel 15 degrees to the left, ok, now turn the wheel back to center, ok, now turn it back three degrees to the right because you oversteered..." It's insane."

Former aircraft carrier OOD (and nuke SWO) here. I agree with your comment about fatigue, but did you get much bridge time? At least back in the day, the conning officer's voice commands weren't so micro-managey. They were along the lines of, "Right 15 degrees rudder [0], steady on course 090," which the helmsman would repeat back to make sure the command was correctly understood. The helmsman would then turn the wheel as needed to make the turn and steady up on the ordered course.

[0] The conning officer would specify the rudder angle in part to control how much the ship would heel in the turn. That can be important when you have armed jet aircraft driving around on the flight deck.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by drblast on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @12:39PM (#15125525)
I spent nine months as the conning officer on an aircraft carrier and qualified as OOD. On numerous occasions we narrowly averted disaster because the helmsman misunderstood the command, or repeated back the correct command but did the opposite.

In many cases those helmsmen were undertrained or tired, as a direct result of cuts in manning/funding and additional requirements.

The "old" people in the navy, including many of the admirals at the time (ten years ago) had many of the same opinions as those expressed in the article (they need to stop looking at radar!!!)

What those people didn't seem to realize is that we were doing the same things they were doing 20 years prior with about half the crew they had.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by cconover on Monday August 28, 2017 @06:14PM (#15120558)
Spot on. In the Coast Guard we have a similar operational risk assessment model called General Assessment of Risk (GAR)[0], which uses six categories and a score of 1-10 in each to get a cumulative score, which corresponds to either Green (low risk), Amber (moderate risk), or Red (high risk). In a best-case scenario, all involved in the operation will conduct a GAR brief as a group, and the person doing the brief will solicit the group for what number they would give for each category, and the highest number anyone calls out is the one the whole group goes with. Typically, if somebody calls out a 5 or higher, they are asked to explain why they feel the risk in that category is so high. Once the reasons are identified, the group then "mitigates" the risk by discussing the identified reasons so that everyone understands the risks. The score is tallied, and the color (risk level) is identified.

That is the best-case, textbook way to run the model. Still very subjective pseudo-science, masquerading as objective risk management, but at least has something of a method to it.

In practice, the repetitiveness of the GAR model results in many crews blowing it off, and giving a vague, arbitrary cumulative score without any discussion around how they got there. This sounds bad, and by policy it is bad, but in practice I have observed no discernible difference in how crews approach risky missions and operations when they conduct a full GAR brief or just give a somewhat random score and move on. In other words, the GAR model does not seem to provide any tangible risk management benefit, and largely seems to serve as a bureaucratic CYA solution.

GAR was introduced in an attempt to reduce the number of mishaps occurring due to what was deemed to be excessive risk-taking. The statistics may demonstrate that it had that effect, though I would argue from my perspective that other training programs introduced to address problems related to risk assessment have far more deckplate-level impact and effectiveness. The problem with GAR is that it tries to objectively standardize something which is, by its very nature, dynamic and subjective. No two people, in the exact same situation and having the exact same capabilities and experience, assess the risk the same way. Assigning numbers to a series of broad categories and giving a color-coded risk level to the situation does not inform anyone of anything very useful. Discussion of risk factors is more helpful, but due to the way the system is structured, is a step frequently skipped.

What matters far more is focusing on continuous, dynamic training and education of those in billets for whom risk management is a critical part of the safe completion of their mission, and emphasizing clear communication unfettered by rank or positional authority to ensure that everyone has full situational awareness. Be respectful, but make sure that information can move freely between all involved.

[0] https://www.uscg.mil/hq/nsfweb/foscr/ASTFOSCRSeminar/Present...

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by treetoppin on Monday August 28, 2017 @08:29PM (#15121262)
Shout out to a fellow Coastie.

I think what I learned from my superiors is that it doesnt matter so much what system is used for risk assessment, but whether a conversation about risk was had in a meaningful way. Sometimes quantification helps this, where complex systems can be analyzed and the consequences assessed. Usually if you are going to do that it has to happen well in advance of an operation. Othertimes the desire to get a number leads to a real ham fisted attempt to "quantify" things like how fatigued the crew is on a scale of 1-10, or to rate the environmental conditions. When the GAR model, which stands for Green - Amber - Red, was used to facilitate an honest conversation about how people felt about an operation as opposed to just checking a box so that it could be put in the logs. When I saw it being used as the former it absolutely made things safer, but that was very dependent on the attitude of those participating.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by cconover on Monday August 28, 2017 @08:35PM (#15121299)
Agreed, and a more succinct way of saying what I was getting at. Attempts to quantify inherently subjective attempts aren't very productive in their own right. What matters far more is having a substantive conversation about risk, and work to promote a culture of open and honest communication.

Semper P

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by Aeolun on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @02:24AM (#15122490)
If you want to know how tired your crew is, wouldn't it suffice to pluck a random few of deck and ask them if they're tired as fuck?
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by mrob on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @04:51AM (#15122977)
How would you make them answer truthfully? Admitting to being tired either means you're showing personal weakness, or you're calling your superiors incompetent at scheduling. Neither possibility sounds good for your career. I think it would be better to measure reaction times, eg. by making them catch a falling ruler immediately after it's dropped and seeing how far it falls.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by toopok4k3 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @07:40AM (#15123584)
This is why good leaders create an environment where you can be honest about such things. You are basically talking about an inhumane system led by fear. Then again we are talking about the navy here...
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by cconover on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @12:37PM (#15125507)
This is part of the reason why they institute fatigue standards, to try to keep people from being over tired and still working, which led to people being hurt.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by treetoppin on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @11:07AM (#15124778)
The hard part is that no one wants to admit that they are tired. Everyone wants to be "that guy" or "that girl" who is always ready to go. After all, most people Ive met in the military have a hard time putting themselves to bed because they have the next watch when its 0200 and we're pulling migrants off rafts or running helicopter ops to interdict $100 million worth of cocaine. During lots of operations you will have a lot of the crew stood up to run things, so balancing crew fatigue with surge operations is no trivial task. The SWO community could take a lot of pointers from the aviation folks - they are way better about making sure people get mandatory rest.
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by jgord on Monday August 28, 2017 @06:11PM (#15120528)
In your opinion, are high level commanders well educated? field experienced ?
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by drblast on Monday August 28, 2017 @07:00PM (#15120856)
Well-educated...it depends. Many have impressive sounding degrees. However, an extreme anti-intellectual bent is very common.

Do you know the people who studied for and aced all exams through brute force memorization, promptly forgot all the material or never understood how it would be applied, but now have the certificate that says they know X? That was 90-95% of Naval officers.

I had a one week class in digital communication, as part of a nine-week introductory class for new officers. They go over basic information theory as it applies to naval communication systems and encryption. The valedictorian of that class, who had just aced the test on digital communications the week before, raised her hand the following week to ask a clarifying question about a follow-on topic: "When you say everything is just ones and zeros...what does that even mean?"

That sums up naval training. I realized then that this person, despite all appearances of knowing the material and being an excellent student, had NO clue what anyone was talking about and hadn't for the entire class despite having the highest grade of anyone.

So you'd have an aircraft carrier CO with a Master's degree in chemistry who didn't really understand the concept of vector addition as it applied to calculating relative wind. He'd be yelling at subordinates for not being able to calculate (improperly) wind vectors and distances. All subordinates were clearly confused by this, felt like the CO, being highly educated and the CO of the ship, must know what he's talking about. If you'd ask the CO to explain what he meant he'd become irate and tell you you were stupid.

The nuclear officers/enlisted knew their shit, and those were some of the smartest and best people I've ever worked with. They'd nod their heads at the aforementioned CO and then ask, "he really doesn't understand vector math, does he?" when he was out of earshot. The rest of the crew would assure the nuclear guys that they must be wrong.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by CamperBob2 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @03:10AM (#15122643)
The valedictorian of that class, who had just aced the test on digital communications the week before, raised her hand the following week to ask a clarifying question about a follow-on topic: "When you say everything is just ones and zeros...what does that even mean?" That sums up naval training.

That sums up a big chunk of computer science. What answer did she get from the instructor?

It's a good question, coming from a non-technical person, and I'd definitely give a dirty look to anyone who laughed at it.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by eric_h on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @12:54PM (#15125664)
> I'd definitely give a dirty look to anyone who laughed at it.

Perhaps that would be appropriate before said person had taken a digital communications class and aced a test on it. After that, however, I think a wry chuckle is very much appropriate.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by saint_fiasco on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @12:39PM (#15125518)
It's not a good question from someone who aced a class in digital communications. What did the guy think was being communicated?
Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by tbihl on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @09:53PM (#15129149)
So the guy accumulated all the pieces of the puzzle before he could assemble them? It's not efficient,but it works as long as you don't get laughed down for finally grounding your facts in something. Sometimes you just have to keep making forward progress, and put things together later.

He just unpacked the black boxes in a different order.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by avs733 on Monday August 28, 2017 @06:22PM (#15120612)
not OP but gonna answer from my experience...

1)...at what? Many of them are very bright and well trained, but seriously, at what? People who go into leadership are often strong managers but that doesn't make them good captains or good seaman. They are incredibly skilled, just at the wrong thing. You gotta remember that at the end of the day it is likely someone under the age of 22 with their hands on the wheel and people of similar age running all the major systems. The promotion path to captain is not exactly hands on.

2)...oh yeah. They have been serving on ships for a long time. But in the Navy, serving on ships does not in any ways equate to seamanship. The Navy (and obviously IMHO) has a little bit of a chip on its shoulder about 'blowing shit up' that likely comes from feeling underutilized in our last to endless wars, and this is especially prevalent in the surface fleet. They tend to prioritize things like warfare officers and sometimes even ex-pilots for promotion up towards captain ranks. Those people are absolutely deployed but doing things totally unrelated to navigation and seamanship as a core mission. They should, but often don't have the time or space, have impeccable seamanship skills.