So then I guess my takeaway is then that there's great and poor working expectations and conditions in both areas. I found the US to be a highly negative experience and don't wish the stress on anyone. Being able to go home at night and not have to be on call or work overtime because it's expected is a great relief. I'll take that over a 100k salary any day. And certainly over my middle income job in California. However since I'm in tech I also get free choice essentially. We in this industry have it pretty lucky in that our skills are easily transferable across borders.

I am an American that found peace and happiness in Europe however because I am American you are right to say I'm biased. You don't live in a place all your life and not notice the negatives more.

Despite the fact that all we can do here is argue using anecdotes, I'll toss mine in - I live in the US, not on the west coast (midwest for me). I make over 100k a year, I have excellent benefits, lots of vacation time, and when I leave work after 8 hours, nobody bothers me.

I do feel incredibly lucky in this situation - I know not everyone gets the stuff I do. But I feel like maybe you might be mistaking "programming in SV/startup community" for "programming in the US". The rest of the country (for the most part) isn't as completely crazy and (sorry to say) idiotic with programming jobs and lifestyles as SV is.

Our company is based in Oregon, not a typical "startup" in that we are a bootstrapped lifestyle business, but we pay competitive wages, full good medical/dental/vision, and a 10% matched 401k. We have lax vacation time policies, typically meaning around four weeks, plus three months paternity and maternity. People work their forty and enjoy frequent three day weekends. We make software for bicyclists so most of our team ride a lot, and we comp all those expenses and a good amount of their fun bike trips. Not to mention a 2k bike budget when they get hired. All that, and we still have a hell of a time finding good candidates with the right attitude. Blows my mind that I can read people here saying they have to move out of the country to feel respected, and we have a hard time finding people...

Just another anecdotal rant to add to the pile :)

I'll add another one: I'm in SV, good money/benefits, work 40 hour weeks. I'm good at what I do but nowhere near world-class.

There are great companies all around the world, and there are crap companies all over the world.

But in Sweden almost EVERYONE (full time workers) gets 5 weeks vacation, 4 weeks contiguous, no questions asked. Not just engineers at great companies.

Sounds like high-school teachers in the US. Even the same pay scale.

From what people are saying (myself included) is that you can find those jobs in the US but possibly with double the salary. There's more variation.

I think you're still missing the point. It isn't all about what we can individually get. I don't want to live in a country where you have to have a special high-paying job to get fair and reasonable holidays and healthcare.

There's so much variation that it's difficult to make a comparison. In my experience, it's reasonable for a senior developer in the US but not in SV to make over $130k in a 9-5 with a month's vacation. Compared to that, $60k and maybe an extra week's vacation doesn't look as nice. Developers are definitely pushed too hard in the US, but they are also definitely underpaid in Europe.

The developer market is so much bigger than the valley. I went there and left because, LOL like I'm joining a startup for 150K to live in SF.

If you don't care about brand name then work in other parts of the country, even remote. Easily pull down six figures and live like a king compared to Europeans. Typing this from Europe.

In conclusion, America is a land of contrasts.

Well I guess this is a classic case of the grass is greener on the other side :-). Enjoy living in here.

I work in a company that has significant European presence. Plus I have worked for a year in Netherlands. Company approach to European employees and US employees are very different. Sure you get paid a lot more in the US, but most companies are very stingy with vacations (doesn't matter what the vacation rules are). People in our European offices are routinely out for the entire month of August, very little email during that period. They are also not expected to work beyond office hours. In addition, parental leaves are much more generous in European offices. Further, risk of layoffs are minimal.

When I used to work in Netherlands, regular employees only worked 4days / week for 36 hrs. They would take a day off in the middle of the week.

Having experienced both, the European work life is much more preferable to me, especially when you have a family.

Which again does not contradict what i wrote does it ? You may prefer it to be the norm but it cannot be considered a universally the best approach. I mean look ... some people actually prefer the steretypical american way. And then there are people like you that have different preferences.

What I was trying to say is that in the US you get to get nice salary and the euro perks quiet often but in Europe you are pretty much stuck when it comes to money.

You are comparing the worst of Europe (companies can be very exploitative even if it's ILLEGA) with the best of USA (a lot of middle-income-class positions) and not even the complete thing (you get most of the things). That's not a fair comparison.

These things cannot really be compared. As i said some people prefer the social benefits to be the norm some other (myself included) prefer the money. A lot of middle income positions in many places in europe are treated like a mere bricklayers

>In a lot of middle-income-class positions you get most of the things you described as perks.

I don't care about getting it myself. Although, it should be pointed out, you don't have to 'negotiate' for health care or notify someone of your preexisting conditions or any of that crap. You just have to turn up and you'll be treated entirely for free.

But I also want to live in a country where this applies to everyone that doesn't earn as much as me too.