OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by UnpossibleJim on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:41PM (#14995625)

These types of MOBA games are a good precursor of military unit management. To be honest, I'm not totally sure whether to be happy or sad about this sort of thing. The strategic control of drone units on a combat field, without the loss of personel (on the countries with this technology, anyways) should make me happy, and does, to a point. BUT the potential for abuse (and, no, I haven't even begun to extrapolate towards the Terminator, nightmare scenarios) is rampant. Fewer people with a conscience on the battlefield or controlling the apparatuses of war may or may not be worth the cost of the lives of young men and women..... but I think wars should be fought by old men and women with swords, anyway. If you're old and can look i to the face of your enemy while you kill them, there's a better chance it's worth killing and dying for (by the numbers, anyways).... plus, the President, Congress and the Senate have to serve in combat positions, in my little fantasy scenerio =)

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Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by AndrewKemendo on Friday August 11, 2017 @09:06PM (#14995744)

These types of MOBA games are a good precursor of military unit management.

Not really.

There may be some limited use cases where this beats traditional sandboxing, wargaming or milsim. However, the primary distinction is that DOTA and the likes have fixed rule sets (albeit large and complex), and a near infinite number of simulations that can be run, wherein the actual "battle" will conform to those rule sets and play variability.

It may not seem like it, but we (military) only have a tiny slice of possible data from the past few hundred years, that would be appropriate to train a DNN on. Not only that, there are few wars that conform to previous war patterns. There are some constants, and we study those, but they don't really give you what you need for troop movements and tactics the same way as is done in DOTA.

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Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by bhouston on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:53PM (#14995683)

Yes, this is perfect for a future of swarms of drones fighting it out against each other.

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Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by trevor-e on Friday August 11, 2017 @09:09PM (#14995757)

I think it's scarily close to happening, or already has. Just the other day I saw the Drone Racing League on one of ESPN's alternative channels, and all I could think about was how effective they would be as kamikaze bombs. If these people can race drones up to 150+ mph and turn sharp corners through obstacles, then the military is already two steps ahead.

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Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by 0xdada on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:53PM (#14995684)

DotA is not a MOBA and it's not a very good precursor for military unit management. I'd say Starcraft is a better comparison, and they are working on applying DeepMind to that right now [0].

[0] https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/09/blizzard-and-deepmind-turn...

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Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by ylor on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:59PM (#14995711)

Dota definitely is a MOBA. Dota is the MOBA from which all the others are devised [0].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_aren...

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Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by CrystalLangUser on Friday August 11, 2017 @09:12PM (#14995765)

Some people dislike that term. Many people in the dota community prefer ARTS over MOBA. Though yes, technically it’s a MOBA; many other games could be MOBAs because it’s fairly vague.

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Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by jsmthrowaway on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:57PM (#14995698)

DotA and Dota 2 are the games that helped define the term MOBA. I'm not sure why you're saying it isn't one, especially since it's in the first sentence of both Wikipedia articles.

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Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by CrystalLangUser on Friday August 11, 2017 @09:10PM (#14995760)

Sometimes people prefer to label dota as an ARTS: Action Real Time Strategy.

Some people dislike the MOBA nomenclature because it comes from Riot (maker of League of Legends; a clone of dota). In addition the term is pretty vague. Call of Duty, Starcraft, and DotA could all technically be “MOBAS”.

ARTS describes it a little better but I don’t think that term is great either.

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Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by ajsalminen on Saturday August 12, 2017 @02:33AM (#14996731)

In my opinion ARTS doesn't describe it better but introduces confusion since it implies these games have something in common with real time strategy games. I don't think they really have anything to do with RTS despite being originally conceived on the Warcraft 3 engine and assets. At least MOBA makes it clear that it's an entirely separate category.

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Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by CrystalLangUser on Saturday August 12, 2017 @05:42AM (#14997231)

> anything to do with RTS

Managing farming times and item spikes is part of the strategy. Of course it's not a true RTS, but I think that term is a bit better than MOBA; I'm also biased against Riot.

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Re:OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships by jdoliner on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:58PM (#14995702)

DotA is generally considered to have created the MOBA genre. That being said, you are right that MOBA's aren't as good a comparison for military unit management as games like Starcraft or Warcraft.

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