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Re:A note on programmer salaries by taeric on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:34AM (#14986825)
While this is a simplistic view that might help you feel good about taking advantage of someone, it is ridiculously easily abused. And, quite frankly, scares me if I think about it for too long.

I don't want a society where there are people left behind simply because they did not make a job out of making more money. Nor do I want a society where services performed by folks leads to a massive wealth imbalance in workforces that don't have people specifically tasked with keeping this from happening. Especially with how anti union/similar setup current cultures are.

And to be clear, I realize that that ship has somewhat sailed. Nobody was specifically tasked with making sure women/minorities were paid fairly. As a result, we have an obvious problem. One where the incentives have aligned such that many companies do not have an incentive to fix it. (There has to be a term for the occurrence where virtue signaling is high, but actual virtue is punished. Anyone know it?)

That is, you are absolutely right in many senses. But I worry that as long as not all companies are paying more fair wages, than there is little incentive to be the one company paying fair wages. (There are incentives to pay above normal pay, but that can still be below fair. See again current women's pay gap.)

So, can you reduce it down to folks are ultimately paid what they are worth. And if they simply shopped themselves around they could get more, but they didn't so they have accepted their low worth, so they are, ipso facto, worth less. Great. I just think we have plenty of evidence that shows that doesn't actually work.

Re:A note on programmer salaries by chrisco255 on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:11AM (#14987301)
No different than shopping for a car and buying the first one you see. You HAVE to shop around for your career. Holy crap, it's the biggest investment of your life. If you don't care, it's nobody's job to care for you, and it shouldn't be. ALWAYS shop around or don't complain when you find out you're being paid below market.
Re:A note on programmer salaries by taeric on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:14AM (#14989830)
My main problem with this is it is victim blaming, at large. And again, leads to situations such as women and minority pay being significantly lower for no good reason.

At an individual level, it is good actionable advice. At a societal level, it really is just victim blaming. And it is hard to day where the line is between those views.

Re:A note on programmer salaries by tengbretson on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:37PM (#14992338)
Failure to self-educate, negotiate or maximize your leverage does not in any way make someone a victim.

What sick thought crept its way into our collective consciousness that has made us glorify being a victim above all else. We have been fooled into holding up literally the opposite of success as the highest virtue.

Re:A note on programmer salaries by taeric on Friday August 11, 2017 @04:27PM (#14993860)
I haven't glorified being a victim. Quite the contrary. I just refuse to glorify anything the exploits and relies on someone being a victim.

That is, my question is what sick thought made it acceptable to take repression and holding down of full segments of a population under the guise of them individually not standing up for themselves acceptable?

Seriously, the evidence is quite clear that this attitude is complete nonsense and only works for people that have certain advantages already. I get that you feel you have worked hard for your position. So have I. I also get that I was additionally lucky that I was able to reap the rewards of my hard work. Many aren't. And to be ok with that is a truly disgusting collective consciousness problem.

Re:A note on programmer salaries by micahbright on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:44PM (#14996133)
>Seriously, the evidence is quite clear that this attitude is complete nonsense and only works for people that have certain advantages already.

Ahem... citation needed

Re:A note on programmer salaries by taeric on Saturday August 12, 2017 @02:04PM (#14999035)
I've been referencing the still existing pay gap between men and women. Same for minorities.

For this attitude to be accurate, the problem is simply that women and minorities are not educating themselves and/or are not "shopping themselves around." If you want me to cite studies showing that specifically is false, quite frankly I don't have time to dig around for that. You could find studies showing it is true.

Re:A note on programmer salaries by micahbright on Saturday August 12, 2017 @08:50PM (#15000911)
The still existing pay gap for men and women, when women make 105% of what men make for the same job title and experience?

You need to study more.

Re:A note on programmer salaries by taeric on Sunday August 13, 2017 @05:32PM (#15005072)
Sounds like you have a source. Because that is a rather bold claim.
Re:A note on programmer salaries by brepl on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:27PM (#14991468)
Is this necessarily a bad strategy? How much extra time investment in understanding the auto market and checking various different options is required to guarantee you'll make a better choice?

Then compare the cost saving, and time spent on the above, to the marginal cost of your free time. Have you saved anything?

Re:A note on programmer salaries by chrisco255 on Friday August 11, 2017 @09:12PM (#14995767)
This absolutely depends on how much your time is worth. You're right that saving money on car purchases might not be worth it all that much to someone who makes $200 an hour.

However, careers are what sort of determine how much our time is worth...so it generally ALWAYS makes sense to shop for multiple job offers.

Re:A note on programmer salaries by meric on Friday August 11, 2017 @02:31AM (#14987116)
virtue signaling is high, but actual virtue is punished

Hypocrisy?

Re:A note on programmer salaries by taeric on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:11AM (#14989800)
I worded it wrong. I meant the incentives are high for the signaling, but actually inverted for the acts.

My example was supposed to be that you are rewarded for looking fair, but it would actually be detrimental to be so.

Deception and hypocrisy, I think, are related to this, but I feel they are a little different, too. Don't know if I can explain why. So perhaps I'm just wrong on that feeling?

Re:A note on programmer salaries by acchow on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:10AM (#14987297)
As software engineers in America, you have quite a great deal of financial freedom. No one is coercing you into accepting a job offer because life is hard and you just don't have the time to shop around for job offers.

If both parties sign an agreement with complete agency, who is getting abused? How can it be "unfair" if you both parties freely agreed to the exchange?

Re:A note on programmer salaries by majewsky on Friday August 11, 2017 @05:33AM (#14987967)
That's assuming that job openings are aplenty. The reality in most cases is that if the company doesn't like me, they can just wait for the next candidate. But if I don't like the company, it doesn't really matter because I need to pay the bills next month.

(inb4 "What happened to your fuck-you money?" As if it's always the employee saying "fuck you".)

Re:A note on programmer salaries by baby on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:28AM (#14989963)
I think that's related to the tipping culture in the US. Employers can pay their employees shit, and almost everyone is happy with that because it makes things cheaper in general.