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Re:Thought Police by rbanffy on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @11:41AM (#14970299)
It's... more complicated than that. Had Edward used the proper internal channels, his bad ideas would have reached the people in charge of policies and he'd have a chance to debate them and be proven wrong. When proved wrong, he'd adjust his mental models of the world in accordance with what he learned.

It's entirely possible this happened and he just didn't change his mind.

Unfortunately, Edward decided to try to start a mutiny and share his dissent with the whole company, alienating and insulting a significant part of its workforce, hoping a majority would side with him. Some asked to be removed from all projects Edward took part in, others wanted to punch him in the face. The result, unfortunately for Edward, was that it was very hard for him to stay at the company because very few people wanted to work with him.

While I agree his firing is a rather unfortunate consequence of all this, and that it'd have been much better had Edward changed his mind in accordance to the current understanding of how height relates to anxiety about escalator operations instead of publicly attacking company policies. Unfortunately, that's not how Edward proceeded.

Re:Thought Police by rednerrus on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:55PM (#14971149)
Isn't working with people you disagree with part of corporate life? Do you think there are no conservative people at your company who have to deal with the incessant anti-conservative tech culture? I assume that occasionally they want to punch us in our faces. They show up for work and get their jobs done.

The problem with enforcing these policies when we agree with them is we have to enforce them when we don't agree with them.

Re:Thought Police by nancye on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:54PM (#14971826)
Equal employment laws and anti-discrimination statutes are real things, and they spell out which groups are protected classes - those based on race, sex, religion, disability, etc. Your workplace is not your living room, and not all ideas and behaviors are equally acceptable. I don't believe conservatives should be discriminated against, but when "conservative" becomes a euphemism for pro-white/anti-semitic/misogynistic beliefs, then you may find yourself running afoul of laws or corporate guidelines because those things are not on the same level as "should taxes be higher or lower" or "what's the right level of environmental regulation."
Re:Thought Police by dictum on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:05PM (#14973072)
The reaction to this memo shows how the definition of misogyny can be spread very thin.
Re:Thought Police by richmarr on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:11PM (#14971345)
> Isn't working with people you disagree with part of corporate life?

But working with people who say you don't deserve to be there is not.

James explicitly complained about "hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for 'diversity' candidates by decreasing the false negative rate". Decreasing the false negative rate categorically does not lower the bar, it just makes the bar more accurate.

In making that statement however, James told everyone hired through that program that he thinks they're not good enough to work at Google.

Re:Thought Police by sever5 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:18PM (#14971412)
His argument was the program was flawed by bad metrics and wouldn't accomplish its goals, not directed at an individual.
Re:Thought Police by richmarr on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:30PM (#14971534)
I quoted him directly. He said the program lowered the bar by decreasing false negatives. Having a hard time squaring that with what you're saying his intention was.
Re:Thought Police by richmarr on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:04PM (#14971260)
> ...incessant anti-conservative tech culture

Not sure I'd silo this as a tech culture thing. Education has been shown to negatively correlate with conservatism so it'd be reasonable to expect to see low numbers of conservatives in any field with higher educational barriers.

http://www.people-press.org/2016/04/26/a-wider-ideological-g...

Re:Thought Police by devnull791101 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:57PM (#14971853)
except in UK, where the poor and uneducated are stereotypically labour/democrat supporters, wealthy educated types are tory/conservative.
Re:Thought Police by Edmond on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @02:24PM (#14972144)
That use to be true in the US too and in some ways still is...but the US also has the race issue which tends to further complicate everything. Working class whites use to be democrats for economic reasons (labor) while still being socially conservative, now they're almost entirely republican and mostly it seems for social (really, ethnic) reasons.

In the US republican affiliation is (or used to be) actually more closely tied with college education and higher income and that is the "fiscal conservatism" (basically lower taxes). Of course higher education levels and income also correlate quite closely with ethnicity and whites are mostly republicans....

Basically the political divisions have become quite ethnically polarized so the usual correlation between actual socio-economic interest and party affiliation don't hold the way one would expect.

Re:Thought Police by richmarr on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @06:43PM (#14974446)
Not sure what data you're looking at but Yougov says the exact opposite.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/demographics-dividing-b...

Re:Thought Police by rednerrus on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:19PM (#14971417)
I can't tell if you are ironically making my point or not.
Re:Thought Police by andrewingram on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:55PM (#14971152)
It is. Edward demonstrated extremely poor judgement.

Now Edward may secretly be bigoted against short people, perhaps some of this bias came through in his memo. On the other hand, he might just not be as smart as he thinks he is, and is really just a poor communicator and makes bad decisions.

It might be a bit of both, but we're much more confident about the poor judgement side of it.

Re:Thought Police by theandrewbailey on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:52PM (#14971126)
It doesn't matter how Edward spread his ideas. He was fired because he had a thoughtcrime.
Re:Thought Police by avs733 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:05PM (#14971273)
No, he was fired because he was speaking about things he is not an expert and was a dick about it and made his company look bad. Imagine if Damore (sorry...Edward) had been forced to accept some social scientist's interpretation of computer science. The uproar would be unimaginable.

Knowledge and expertise is transferable to aid in developing understanding of a new area of thought, however knowledge and expertise in one area is not automatically transferable to expertise in another area.

Re:Thought Police by sever5 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:46PM (#14971739)
> it and made his company look bad

This may have been a nuance James missed, Google is open to _external_ social woes.

Re:Thought Police by zamalek on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:46PM (#14971059)
> It's entirely possible this happened and he just didn't change his mind.

Although he had some bad ideas it was a long memo with some valid concerns.

> Had Edward used the proper internal channels, his bad ideas would have reached the people in charge of policies and he'd have a chance to debate them and be proven wrong.

There is the crux of the problem. In a genuine discussion about these issues both parties would have left the table uniquely enlightened about heightism issues. Edward wouldn't have had to defend [the portion of] scientifically correct ideas and would have been more open to correction on his assumptions/biases. Likewise, management would have been able to more accurately understand and tackle the problems that short people face as elevator operators.

Re:Thought Police by icthysilia on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:13PM (#14971364)
I feel like The Google Memo has become this kind of litmus test for understanding workplace social dynamics, and ironically, is one of the reasons for emphasizing things like diversity, etc.

The reason this person was fired was not because of the argument they outlined, but because they communicated this position via a long, widespread memo without appreciating the ramifications of doing so. The "hostile workplace environment" part isn't the argument per se, it's the fact that they're asserting this very publicly in a decontextualized way.

The employee could have written a 20 page memo about coffee being poisonous, and how it shouldn't be allowed at Google functions, with all sorts of scientific support they marshaled, and if they sent it out in the same way I guarantee that they would get checks on their "socially incompetent and unpleasant to work with" list, even if they wasn't outright fired for doing so.

Now, instead of coffee, you're talking about gender and sex, where there are people in the workplace who have reason to feel threatened. This doesn't mean those women are correct, or that the memo-writer's position is incorrect, but that writer distributing that memo in that way shows a lack of appreciation for social behavior.

Add to this that Google is a private company, and that employee is asking to be fired.

It's really simple: they could have kept the same opinions, and brought them up at specific times, with a limited subset of people, when it was practically relevant--such as when discussing a specific hire, or when the topic is being discussed with a limited number of need-to-know people.

Frankly, this is a time when I think how you talk about minorities in the workplace does matter. It's not thinking there shouldn't be quotas that's the problem, it's how you bring that up.

Re:Thought Police by zamalek on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:32PM (#14971564)
> when it was practically relevant

I can completely agree with this. It was a very disruptive (not the good kind) message - he likely exasperated the problems that quotas cause for other employees. The article mentions that the diversity manager should also be sacked and, while I never like to imply that should be done, someone did hand Edward a loaded gun; a person that was hired to prevent situations like that from happening.

Re:Thought Police by rbanffy on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:51PM (#14971799)
I don't think anyone should expect the VP of diversity to be able to successfully prevent any sufficiently intelligent and determined engineer from making a mess.

It's an inherently unfair game. It doesn't matter how many crisis did she prevent, she didn't prevent one and that should not be enough to fire her.

Having said that, I assume this was not the first time he expressed his opinions about diversity hiring. The company should keep an eye on this kind of sentiment and use the information to guide its own behavior. If I knew diversity hires were creating such perceptions, I'd boost internal campaigns to better inform the workforce of the methods and intended results, as well as publish indicators that allow a fair assessment of its results.

I don't think, for a second, the bar was lowered. It's just that there is more than one bar.

Re:Thought Police by rkeene2 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:44PM (#14972844)
One possible way Google could have turned this into a win-win scenario would have been to have the VP of diversity co-opt the memos's authors and put them in charge of some diversity initiatives so that they could experience the nuances of the problems with their viewpoint and perhaps the come to a revised (and usable solution), or if his berries were more closely correct the VP could experience that.
Re:Thought Police by rbanffy on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @07:28PM (#14974745)
They should have done it before the memo went viral in such way as not to look like an endorsement of his (wrong) position.
Re:Thought Police by rbanffy on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:15PM (#14971383)
> In a genuine discussion about these issues both parties would have left the table uniquely enlightened

These discussions happen. It's just that Edward was never invited to them. His lack of knowledge ended in him making the assumption no discussion was ever held and that corporate policies were decided by whim and prejudices.