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Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by Nickersf on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:14AM (#14965496)
Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right?

Seriously though, I'm worried about our future as a spieces. The knowledge and technologies we have developed, which require nurturing. We nurture modern civilization by making sure the smartest get into positions where they can express their intellect. Part of that process needs to be keeping rigours standards in place when it comes to education.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by tnzn on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @08:20AM (#14967824)
Actually meritocracy is bullshit really. How can you measure merit ? By the outcomes ? Are you seriously believing outcomes measure merit ? If so I have bad news for you.

As for the argument that society will collapse because of the democratization of education and degrees and whatnot,it's at least a hundred years old argument. In France the right-wing has been whining about it for 50 years (especially regarding math) and we still have mathematicians that are among the best in the world.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by 0x10101 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @09:53AM (#14968781)
Outcomes on realistic tests of performance, yes.

I think you are thinking of "merit" as some intrinsic property of a person as opposed to measured performance. Some things are hard to measure, but many things are not. Putting people into positions based on the best estimates of how well they would perform is meritocracy.

What is your system for selecting people for positions if not by how well they would perform at the positions? What this typically devolves into patrimonialism or clientelism...where positions are given to related persons, friends, or in exchange for political power.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by Nickersf on Thursday August 10, 2017 @05:41PM (#14984582)
Your last paragraph is filled with a lot of ideologically loaded terms. "Democratize", "Right-wing"...

Okay here's a good example:

A company hires and pays a person to do job a, said person has skills and knowledge of topics x and y and gets the job done using skills x and y.

The same company hires person b, who doesn't have skills x and y, but still has the accreditation. Person b, doesn't get the job done, still gets paid and the company did not have the problem solved, or service/product to sell.

Further, if we don't set rigorous standards for admission and graduation the smarter people have their accreditations devalued. Additionally, employers and other agencies will not know who they are getting.

The idea lowering standards so 'anyone' can get into anything is dangerous, and creates chaos. It's anti-progressive.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by tzs on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:47AM (#14966367)
Nowhere does the article say they are lowering standards. They are just changing how they handle students who need extra preparation in English or math.

Before: give them standard English and math tests, and if they do not pass make them take a year of non-credit remedial classes before letting them take any credit glasses.

After: everyone can take credit classes. For those that need extra work in math or English there will be programs that work concurrently with or as part of credit classes to catch them up on math or English.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by notyourday on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @07:50AM (#14967626)
> Nowhere does the article say they are lowering standards. They are just changing how they handle students who need extra preparation in English or math.

Just re-read the sentence dispassionately.

You do realize that these are people who would flunk TOEFL if the TOEFL was a requirement the way it is for foreign student? Why are we accepting people who fail basic English into a university that has English as a primary teaching language? What are going to be the classes that these students would be taking concurrently with "Expressing yourself in paragraphs 49"? All of the soft sciences require papers that are graded. So they are out. Hard sciences? Nope, they are require algebra and our students cannot do basic algebra ( let us not pretend that universities have math proficiency requirements for admissions - it is just basic algebra and some geometry plus ability to reason ) or do basic problem solving. So I guess those classes would be yoga and basket weaving.

And in just 6-7 years ( these people won't graduate in 4 ) we would be wondering why is that we are having so few people getting jobs in STEM fields.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by rodgerd on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @05:38AM (#14966931)
> Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right?

You mean it sarcastically, but you are literally correct. What has "merit" in so-called meritocracies is entirely subjective.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by xupybd on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @07:20AM (#14967474)
I don't think a meritocracy requires the formal education system we have. I'm sure the top trades people in ancient times were high in society.

Also I don't think we have the meritocracy people claim we have. Being born into a well connected wealthy family is such a huge head start. And some of the people at the top seem to have little merit, for example the kardashians seem to be famous because they're famous. Not to pick on them but they are a public example of how money gets money.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by danieltillett on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @06:24AM (#14967153)
Unfortunately not. The reason meritocracy has “won” over the last 200 years is those societies that didn’t embrace it lost the wars that were fought.
Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by chongli on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @06:55AM (#14967339)
This is so completely wrong. Wars are won and lost for many, many reasons. Food, resources, location, coincidence, weather, politics, sheer luck.

This is the sort of crap people complain about whenever the meritocracy comes up. Sorry, but merit is not whatever you want it to be after the fact when you point to something that succeeded. That's called the Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by danieltillett on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @07:09AM (#14967416)
Yes wars have been won and lost for many reasons over history, but since the development of meritocracy (last 200 years) those societies that have embraced it have won all the important wars.

Do you really think the nobility just rolled over and gave the middle classes all the power because they asked nicely?

Edit. Actually that is exactly what merit is. Meritocracy is not rule by the just, but rule by those most likely to be winners. It just happens that given the opportunity the “winners" are most likely to be found within then middle class.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by yorwba on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @08:01AM (#14967694)
Can you give examples of societies that have embraced meritocracy? I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by logicchains on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @08:36AM (#14967971)
Singapore was explicitly created as a meritocracy, when it was granted independence from Malaysia by England. This was a deliberate contrast to Malaysia, where the government did and still does explicitly promote policies that benefit the Malay minority at the expense of the more economically successful Chinese minority. Singapore is now one of the most prosperous countries in the world.

Fun fact: the first president of Singapore was senior wrangler at Cambridge, which according to Wikipedia has been described as the "the greatest intellectual achievement attainable in Britain"[1].

Singapore also has one of the world's most liberal immigration policies, allowing practically anyone in who can get a reasonably paying job, instead of privileging the employment of its own citizens like most countries do.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senior_Wrangler_(University_of...

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by 0x10101 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @10:04AM (#14968917)
I would take a look at Fukuyama's "Origins of Political Order" and "Political Order and Political Decay". The first hints of meritocracy were in China during the Qin and Han dynasties, where exams where used to provide positions in bureaucracy to those not of noble birth.

Prussia was really the first example of this in the west, where in 1770 all civil servants were required to pass a written exam.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by danieltillett on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:33PM (#14973303)
I think the East India company were the first western group to copy the Qin exam based merit system [1].

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by danieltillett on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @08:40AM (#14968014)
All the ones that speak the language you just wrote in.

More seriously any society not ruled by a hereditary nobility is a meritocracy. The nobility did not embrace this change - they just lost the war with the middle class.

I should say that no society is a perfect meritocracy and that the past winners are always conspiring to keep out the new, but overall most current societies in the modern world are a vast improvement over the old, inbred-nobility ruled alternative.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by Mvandenbergh on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @09:39AM (#14968623)
Nonsense. The Chinese have had a meritocratic civil service for ~1500 years. They spent the early 19th century being thrashed by the British who only established an exam based civil service in 1850s.

The Napoleonic French were a lot more meritocratic in their military and civilian career structure than the British who beat them on the seas.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by danieltillett on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:40PM (#14973368)
The Chinese were not thrashed by the British in the early 19th C. - they were thrashed by the East India Company who had embraced meritocracy long before then (they actually copied the Chinese system).

Napoleon is a classic example of the success of meritocracy - it took the combined effort of the whole European nobility to defeat France and even then it was a close run thing.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by kashkhan on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @06:29AM (#14967190)
college and other education should be about adding learning to the recipients and not about measurement.

People should learn things as they want, and not be required to meet arbitrary standards and degrees to obtain societal benefits.

A hundred years ago ~1% of the people went to college. Now it's more than 50%. The societal function of college has changed.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by 0x10101 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @09:57AM (#14968813)
"People should learn things as they want, and not be required to meet arbitrary standards and degrees to obtain societal benefits."

Then don't ask me to pay for you to do so. Check some books out of the library.

People are paying a lot of money to universities in exchange get a better life for themselves. If it doesn't improve their skills in any measurable way, we should try something else.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by kashkhan on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @08:10PM (#14975032)
thats ok. we are in a transitional phase. Most of what you learn in college goes to waste anyway.

College proves that you can start something and finish it. Like you can do engineering, but even graduates of MIT need years in industry to learn the actual skills needed for their jobs.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by 0x10101 on Friday August 11, 2017 @09:10AM (#14989261)
If the goal of college is just to prove you can prove that you can do start something and finish it, we can find a lot cheaper ways of doing that. You can even get a job that doesn't require college to prove that.
Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by xupybd on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @07:10AM (#14967422)
Measurement is a huge value add. It's proof to employers that you know the basics. It's something that you can use to get a job. Learning for the sake of learning is great and all but you also have to put food on the table.
Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by kashkhan on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @08:14PM (#14975052)
how many employers give job offers based on GPA?

GPA or any other grades is bad proxy for actual ability and employability.

Humans are good at studying for evaluations and measurements. But colleges that teach for that are a waste of time.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by jonbarker on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @10:15AM (#14969069)
In the industrial manufacturing based economy people could get good jobs without basic undergraduate 'skills'. Now in the knowledge economy, they can't.
Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by kashkhan on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @08:12PM (#14975043)
yes, and that's why they should go to college and learn those skills.
Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by jonbarker on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:20AM (#14978880)
It used to be that community college was the place to go if you lacked the credentials to go straight into a 'real' college now that I think about it. Is this not the case any more?
Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by kashkhan on Thursday August 10, 2017 @05:16PM (#14984364)
lack the credentials or money to pay.

'real' colleges offer better networking, but often great teachers can be found in community colleges, where profs are not selected primarily for research.

A minority of students learn better in competitive environments. Self motivated students learn better in constructive non competitive environments which are more like apprenticeships than competition for grades.

Re:Cal State will no longer require math and English placeme... by VLM on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @08:58AM (#14968215)
Subjective is not an allowed thought with respect to politics, see recent events at google. My suspicion is loosening STEM requirements is a reaction to tightening political belief requirements.

My point is its not so much a weakening, as its a redirection back to the traditional place of a college for indoctrination of theology.

In a community of extreme political intolerance, algebra matters very little compared to political purity.