Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by Terr_ on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:22PM
(#14960896)
This reminds me of an old (1928) piece titled "On Being The Right Size" by JBS Haldane [0], which lightly touches on many different concerns related to sizing:
> Of course tall land animals have other difficulties. They have to pump their blood to greater heights than a man, and, therefore, require a larger blood pressure and tougher blood-vessels. A great many men die from burst arteries, greater for an elephant or a giraffe.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by Bartweiss on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:32PM
(#14959541)
I'm confused by the slider task. The explanation simply says that voles eat much more than elephants per unit of body mass, but the sliders suggest that voles literally eat more food per day than elephants.
Are the grass pictures supposed to be interpreted relative to the size of the animals next to them?
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by LeifCarrotson on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:27PM
(#14964398)
> 402
> Plot twist!
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Don't see many 402s!
Also, D3 is awesome. Don't pay to show a graph, either draw it in any visualization tool and take a screenshot for the article, or use locally hosted D3.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by devy on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:06PM
(#14959256)
I visited San Diego Zoo a few months ago. In SDZ's Safari park, they host one of the biggest elephant park in North America. I remember the tour guide mentioned Elephants are so huge that if you lay down for more than 4 hours, there are pretty high chance they won't stand up and eventually leading to death due to the size of their body.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by eridius on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:55PM
(#14961248)
This article is interesting, but all it talks about is why big animals have a lower metabolic rate than small ones. I wish it would have also addressed the question of why small animals have a higher metabolic rate than big ones. If elephants can get away with having such a low metabolic rate, why can't voles?
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by ufmace on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:57PM
(#14961868)
That's what the article is all about. It's temperature management. Smaller warm-blooded animals have less mass to generate heat and higher surface area to volume ratio to dissipate it faster. They need a much higher metabolic rate to maintain body temperature, especially when the environment is very cold. They would freeze if they had the same rate as the elephant.
Large warm-blooded animals have more mass generating more heat and less surface area to dissipate it. They need a much lower rate or they would overheat. Not to mention the objectively huge amount of food and air circulation that would be required to maintain that rate.
If either animal had the other's metabolic rate, it would be dead within hours, if not minutes.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by xenadu02 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @05:17PM
(#14962798)
Nature's insulation is fat and fur/feathers but there is a limit to how much that can help. It adds weight and bulk - hummingbirds have to hover their own weight so adding more fat is like making bigger rocket: you need more fuel to lift your fuel.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by vacri on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:00PM
(#14965167)
More insulation has other tradeoffs. Look at arctic animals - they're not very agile or dextrous. Penguins, whales, sealions, polar bears... they're all 'lumpy' and nowhere near as agile as other areas. Even the occasional agile animal like a snow fox is 'lumpier' than its temperate brethren, but they only have to be more agile than the tubes of fat that hunt them.
Any time you think "why didn't this or that feature evolve a different way", have a think about tradeoffs in terms of survivability.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by philipcristiano on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:11PM
(#14961439)
The article claims "Without its internal heaters turned up to-the-max, a shrew would leak out all of its heat and freeze. And this explains its furious appetite."
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by frenchy on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:10PM
(#14961423)
If I was to hazard a guess, it's because the vole has a lot more competition for food. The elephant's main risk is eating up all the food and having none left. The vole's main risk is having some other animal grab the food first. At the vole's size, and with the vole's eating strategies, there's a real advantage to being quick. With the elephant and similarly sized animals, not really (and also, there's the exploding problem).
There's also the problem that a skeleton doesn't get stronger at the same rate that a body gets heavier, so a larger animal is going to have to avoid rapid accelerations in order to not break its bones or sprain its ligaments.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by newman8r on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:22PM
(#14964359)
I think it relates to the surface area:volume ratio. The implication is that a smaller animal will have a relatively higher surface area to lose heat to, thus necessitating increased metabolic rate to make up for that loss.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by ak217 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:40AM
(#14958965)
I thought this would be about allometric scaling of organs. But if we're on the topic of metabolism, I wonder what the rate of cancer is for shrews vs. elephants, once the metabolism and lifespan are somehow accounted for.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by evolve2017 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @05:16PM
(#14962785)
This is actually a great question - take a look at this discussion from 2015.
This isn't my area of expertise, but my understanding is that elephants have many more copies of TP53, a gene that plays a critical role in regulating the cell cycle (and thus uncontrolled growth that may occur in cancer).
One of the linked papers also states that there was no correlation between body size and cancer in their experiments.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by amelius on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:15PM
(#14963437)
Also, at the cell level, large animals should have a better self-protecting mechanism against cancer, because more cells means a higher probability of cell-divisions going awry.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by transparentlabs on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:30PM
(#14961623)
The difference in metabolic rates between large and small animals is directly linked to why large animals typically have longer lifespans the smaller ones.
Re:Why Elephants Don’t Explode: How Nature Solves Bigness
by theoh on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @09:34AM
(#14968573)
Knut Schmidt-Nielsen wrote a couple of books on this topic. Googling Bonner and Schmidt-Nielsen together seems to bring up some surveys of the literature.
> Of course tall land animals have other difficulties. They have to pump their blood to greater heights than a man, and, therefore, require a larger blood pressure and tougher blood-vessels. A great many men die from burst arteries, greater for an elephant or a giraffe.
https://irl.cs.ucla.edu/papers/right-size.html
Are the grass pictures supposed to be interpreted relative to the size of the animals next to them?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleiber%27s_law
> Plot twist!
> Payment required...
> This embedded plot has reached the maximum allowable views given the owner's current subscription.
> Please visit the subscriptions page to learn more about upgrading.
Don't see many 402s!
Also, D3 is awesome. Don't pay to show a graph, either draw it in any visualization tool and take a screenshot for the article, or use locally hosted D3.
http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/2/21701757/
[1] http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-39126993
Large warm-blooded animals have more mass generating more heat and less surface area to dissipate it. They need a much lower rate or they would overheat. Not to mention the objectively huge amount of food and air circulation that would be required to maintain that rate.
If either animal had the other's metabolic rate, it would be dead within hours, if not minutes.
Any time you think "why didn't this or that feature evolve a different way", have a think about tradeoffs in terms of survivability.
There's also the problem that a skeleton doesn't get stronger at the same rate that a body gets heavier, so a larger animal is going to have to avoid rapid accelerations in order to not break its bones or sprain its ligaments.
http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/bealsmodules/area_volum... provides some good basic info
This isn't my area of expertise, but my understanding is that elephants have many more copies of TP53, a gene that plays a critical role in regulating the cell cycle (and thus uncontrolled growth that may occur in cancer).
One of the linked papers also states that there was no correlation between body size and cancer in their experiments.
https://www.nature.com/news/how-elephants-avoid-cancer-1.185...
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/15/magazine/warburg-effect-a...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_effect
https://www.amazon.com/Scale-Universal-Innovation-Sustainabi...