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Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by Nursie on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:41AM (#14956381)
Actually I think they probably would. The Guardian's schtick is quite full of "Oh god we're all so awful, we must repent". Although you may be right - it's more likely to be aimed at everyone they consider less enlightened than them.

All that said, there certainly is something in what she writes, particularly about the naivety of people growing up with little world perspective like that.

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by marcus_holmes on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:45AM (#14956411)
Her assertion that world geography is not taught to US high school students shocked me.
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by Nursie on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:54AM (#14956454)
Yes, me too.

I had a fairly sheltered upbringing in the UK, but we did at least do some world geography and the GCSE curriculum in the early 90s required a little bit more social geography, concentrating on the southern parts of West Africa (not that I remember much of it now).

Without any world geography at all, well it seems criminal to set up an education system, that way.

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by davedx on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:17AM (#14956589)
Yeah, and swathes of the conservative / alt-right movement currently running things want to get rid of the (Federal) Department of Education altogether, so I read. I've even seen people on Twitter claiming America would be better without any college system at all.
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by didgeoridoo on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:48AM (#14956793)
The DoE has only existed since 1980. American public schooling did just fine without it for centuries. Why is it beyond the pale to consider eliminating it?
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by soundwave106 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:33AM (#14958878)
It's not beyond the pale, but typically when I hear something like "we must eliminate the Department of Education", it is attached more to a philosophical reasoning (eg: "government has no business in education" / Constitutional arguments / individual freedom arguments) versus arguments over what the DoE actually does.

As far as I can tell, the Department of Education's role (https://www2.ed.gov/about/what-we-do.html) is largely limited to certain funding (eg: student loans), statistics, certain anti-discrimination legal enforcement that is applicable at the national level, and "[identifying] major issues" (eg advocacy). Plus some items related to the No Child Left Behind act.

A lot of that seems okay to me. In particular, I think having a centralized statistical department (what this department's role largely was before elevation to cabinet level) is absolutely worthwhile. Student loans would in my opinion be the most interesting topic to explore of the above, but it's more or less worth a debate over it... not "eliminate department due to Reasons".

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by toastking on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:26AM (#14957569)
At least from the perspective of someone who deals with teaching disabled students. The federal DOE determines allocation of resources and ADA compliance of schools. Without federally mandated special needs services many districts could stop offering these services all together.
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by didgeoridoo on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:47AM (#14957735)
These just sound like laws that should be enforced by the courts and the regular legal system. Why do we need an additional federal bureaucracy to administer them?

The question isn't if the ends are desirable. It's whether it is acceptable to merely consider whether the DoE as currently-constituted is the best way to achieve them.

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by jessaustin on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:54AM (#14957288)
Who else would enforce standards in geographic education?

/s

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:16AM (#14957474)
Presumably it was the responsibility of the individual states?
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by Brendinooo on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @10:44AM (#14958250)
>We did not study world maps, because international geography, as a subject, had been phased out of many state curriculums long before.

It's really just a generalized statement based on her personal experience.

Here's some anecdata:

In 11th grade I took a world cultures class that spent a lot of time in Russian and Chinese history as well as a broader overview of various parts of Africa (mostly sub-Saharan, if I recall correctly). This was a couple of years after doing a world cultures class that was a bit broader and shallower, but I do remember it having a pretty extensive introduction to the bigger world religions. We learned the Five Pillars of Islam as well as some of the basic principles of Hinduism and Buddhism.

In elementary school, the gifted kids would put on a thing called "International Day" where they'd each pick a country, write to embassies for info, get into the CIA World Factbook on the World Wide Web, wear clothing from the nation, bring in their food, etc. It was a nice way for kids to try tzatziki sauce, listen to Slovenian-style polka, say hello in Mandarin, or see someone wearing a ghoutra or kaftan.

While this was a good school district, it was nothing remotely resembling an urban or cosmopolitan one. I have to think that plenty of Americans had similar experiences like this.

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by frubar on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @10:59AM (#14958461)
Where on earth did you go to school? Was it a public school? I moved around a lot as a kid and no where did I learn any of the things you mentioned.
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by Brendinooo on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:32AM (#14958868)
Public school, about an hour outside of Pittsburgh.
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by coldtea on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:28AM (#14957078)
How about not taught properly?

How many US high school students can pinpoint even fairly known countries on the map?

(Come to Austria, meet the Kangaroos)

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by taneq on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:33AM (#14957623)
I see this accusation leveled at the U.S. all the time, usually in highly contrived scenarios (random people picked off the street, asked to locate landmarks in another country, then the worst/funniest performers made into a gag reel). It shits me because it's so hypocritical. I'm not from the U.S. and I have no idea where your capital city is (let alone state capitals and whatnot) and I really don't give a crap, so why should you care about mine? It's just "hurr, durr, murkins are stupid" so that equally stupid people can feel superior about something.
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by coldtea on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:38AM (#14958937)
>(random people picked off the street, asked to locate landmarks in another country, then the worst/funniest performers made into a gag reel).

Only it's not like that. You can ask random people yourself to verify, or you can trust one of several surveys and/or studies in the subject. E.g:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/0502_060502_...

>It shits me because it's so hypocritical. I'm not from the U.S. and I have no idea where your capital city is (let alone state capitals and whatnot) and I really don't give a crap, so why should you care about mine?

Well, it's exactly the "don't know, don't care" attitude we're arguing against here.

A basic knowledge of geography is not only essential in the modern, globalized world, but also indicative of a lack of knowledge in other areas, including history and current world affairs. And that, for a country that's intervening left and right, and whose citizens are trusted to vote, rally for, or oppose parties that will perform such international interventions, diplomatic actions, etc, a lack of such knowledge is shameful.

Not as if lack of knowledge was ever some kind of badge of honor.

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by taneq on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:31PM (#14964781)
Memorizing names and locations of cities and landmarks in a far-off country that you have no plan to visit, when those names and locations are instantly publicly available and there is an infinite number of more useful things to learn instead, is a waste of time.

Don't conflate being able to recite geographic info with knowledge. It's not knowledge, it's just... data.

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by coldtea on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:30AM (#14966300)
>Memorizing names and locations of cities and landmarks in a far-off country that you have no plan to visit, when those names and locations are instantly publicly available and there is an infinite number of more useful things to learn instead, is a waste of time

Which would be relevant if anybody had asked them to do that. Nobody suggested people should "memorize names and locations of cities and landmarks in a far-off country that you have no plan to visit".

I (and others, including classical education) suggested a working knowledge of work geography -- what the continents are, what the major countries are, major cities. They should also know a thing or two about their history. You know, the history of human civilization, even if they have no plans to contribute to it.

And the "instantly public availability" of information doesn't make one smarter. Only the information already accessed (and even more so, evaluated and assessed) does. Things you know are there in your mind, available for your thoughts and comprehension, can help you follow a discussion, can be used to make judgements etc. Things one can merely look up do not inform your worldview -- they are absent from it.

>Don't conflate being able to recite geographic info with knowledge. It's not knowledge, it's just... data.

Knowledge itself is just data plus understanding them in context. Without data there's no knowledge. Don't conflate potential access to data with actually knowing things.

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by coldtea on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @07:19AM (#14967468)
a working knowledge of work geography -> a working knowledge of world geography
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by crisnoble on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:25AM (#14957552)
My school taught world geography in 7th grade (US public school). We learned every country and a capitol, every mountain range, desert, ocean and river across the entire globe. I think maybe only 50% of that has been retained nearly 20 years later, but still we did learn (well at least temporarily memorize) it.
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by Sean1708 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:37AM (#14957660)
> We learned every country and a capitol, every mountain range, desert, ocean and river across the entire globe.

This sounds like a very shallow style of geography, did you not do any social geography?

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by ionised on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:42AM (#14958988)
He did say 7th grade.
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by Sean1708 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:23PM (#14959433)
7th grade is about 13 years old, right? I think I did social geography when I was about 13, I definitely wasn't any older 14 because I didn't do GCSE geography.

Edit: In case you were interested this[0] is an example of the kind of stuff we learn when we're 11-14 in Britain.

[0]: http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/subjects/zrw76sg

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by ionised on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @05:15AM (#14966829)
I am British (31 now).

I can't remember year 7 and 8 geography very well, though that all sounds familiar.

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by davedx on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:15AM (#14956579)
Hah, I read the Guardian a lot, but let's be honest here -- they're just as capable of liberal hand-wringing and self-blame too.

The opinion pieces really make me wince sometimes.

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by al452 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:22AM (#14957526)
Oh god yes, the Guardian was the last newspaper I read regularly (well that and the FT sometimes) but I gave it up because I just couldn't take the horrible whingey whiny columnists any more.

It's got worse though, now seems like they won't publish a piece unless it has a snide reference to "neoliberalism", or some comment about evil bankers causing financial crises, or some such, no matter how off-topic it is.

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by boyce on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:06AM (#14956528)
The "we're so awful" business is usually of the "why do we british do/think X" variety where X is something popular with a largely separate subset of people to Guardian writers and readers. Then we can pat ourselves on the back.

It's increasingly cack but still the best of a bad bunch

Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by Nursie on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:24AM (#14956623)
Yeah, very much agree. I read it quite a bit, but I do occasionally shake my head in disbelief while doing so!
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by ljf on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:25AM (#14957045)
I love the Guardian (I read a wide range of other sites and papers/magazines), but then I am a dull lefty - but this felt like a bit of a jump the shark moment to me: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/may/...
Re:Unlearning the myth of American innocence by boyce on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:57AM (#14957298)
I knew it would be avocado related but was expecting the "overcado" piece

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2015/oct/05/the-avocado-...