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Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by tunesmith on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:31PM (#14953863)
In a world where qualified diverse candidates still regularly get rejected at greater rates than qualified non-diverse candidates, is this bad? I mean, as soon as the needle even flirts with going past perfectly fair in the other direction, that's when some of these people get up in arms?
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by manfredo on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:44PM (#14953972)
This is besides the point. The point is, the author did not say that unqualified diverse candidates are accepted at a higher rate than unqualified non-diverse candidates. Many people are using this statement (often excluding the last couple words specifically referring to the false-negative rate) to claim that the author calling his women and racially underrepresented co-workers under qualified.

For what it's worth, I do think that taking steps to decrease the false negative rate for diverse candidates is an okay system and I explain my company's process of doing this in another comment in this page. That said, pointing out that this system is increasing the false-negative rate for non-diverse candidates is 1) factually correct, and 2) not at all the same thing as calling my underrepresented co-workers unqualified. If somebody claimed that our interview process increased the false positive rate for underrepresented groups I would object to such a statement - but that is not what is said in this document.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by evolve2017 on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:46PM (#14953998)
I replied elsewhere but in case you didn't see it:

It looks like the author is talking about setting a threshold, as in the context of creating a test. Please have a look at [1].

In this setting, it is not possible to decrease the false-negative rate without increasing the false-positive rate.

I think the author is phrasing things this way simply as a matter of rhetoric, but his argument clearly suggests that less qualified 'diversity' candidates are being hired.

1. http://www.prolekare.cz/dbpic/jp_5403_f_21-x1000_1600

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by TimPC on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:34AM (#14954339)
There are several studies on this domain that show things like reminding people of their biases remove about 90% of the effect of a bias. I don't think the studies showed that they create a bias in the opposite direction. Removing bias would substantially lower false negatives. While this would slightly increase false positives I see no reason that it would make false positives higher than the non-minority false positive rates so inferring that increasing false positives implies coworkers of that demographic are unqualified is just outright false.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by evolve2017 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:41AM (#14954391)
I see what you're saying about the bias-awareness intervention.

For your last sentence, I did not write, and did not mean to imply anything about the number of false-positive (FP) 'diversity' candidates vs FP non-'diversity' candidates. It's true that the author hints at this comparison.

I meant to convey that, per the author's statement about 'lowering the bar', Google's practices increase the FP rate in 'diversity' candidates as compared to what would have happened without the practices.

From this perspective, the author is stating that the 'diversity' hires have a higher FP rate than might have occurred otherwise. I think this conclusion - I think it's a fair one, though we may disagree - is what people find somewhat problematic.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by TimPC on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:30AM (#14954695)
I think the majority of what people find problematic is Gizmodo removing all the references, removing the chart that explained the core concept in the idea and aggressively misrepresenting the author's positions. I think the author could do more to acknowledge the 'default' state of no programs is unfair and people would have to find something else to find problematic if he did so but I think most of the problematic comes from virtue signalling attached to misrepsentation and oversimplification of complicated issues.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by manfredo on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:06AM (#14954138)
First off, this isn't a pharmaceutical trial this is a hiring process. Second, even if there is a fundamental principle of probability that assures this is the case it's still possible to have a change that vastly reduces to false-negative rate as compared to the increase false positive rate - so much to the extent that the latter is negligible.

On a broader note, the way you're injecting a completely different message into the author's text is exactly the kind of behavior that makes these discussions toxic. I realize that might sound accusatory, but if people can't make a statement without people stuffing contradictory or unrelated words into their mouths there's no possibility of civil discussion.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by evolve2017 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:09AM (#14954165)
Thanks for your response!

This isn't a pharmaceutical trial but there's no reason why we can't follow along with the author's analogy of 'false negatives'.

Here are his words from 'The Harm of Google's Biases':

    I strongly believe in gender and racial diversity, and 
    I think we should strive for more. However, to achieve 
    a more equal gender and race representation, Google has 
    created several discriminatory practices:
He goes on to list his examples, which include the following:

    Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar 
    for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false 
    negative rate
I think you may have misread his position earlier; I noted that you misspoke when talking about this particular statement (i.e., whether the false-negative rate applied to 'diversity' vs 'non-diversity' candidates)

EDIT:

Didn't see your statistical comment. Unfortunately, I can't think of a case where 'adjusting a bar' to decrease the false-negative rate does not neceessarily increase the false-positive rate.

The fact that the author uses the phrase 'lowering the bar' suggests that he is also thinking of this statistical requirement.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by manfredo on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:35AM (#14954341)
> Unfortunately, I can't think of a case where 'adjusting a bar' to decrease the false-negative rate does not neceessarily increase the false-positive rate.

Here's one:

* Phone screens have a 50% false negative rate, and a 0% false positive rate.

* On-site interviews have a 0% false negative rate, and a 0% false positive rate.

Non-diverse candidates do one phone screen, and if passed, do an onsite. Diverse candidates do two phone screens, and if either passes, they go on to the onsite. For all candidates, if the onsite is passed, the candidate gets an offer.

* Unqualified candidates, regardless of diversity, never get an offer.

* Qualified, non-diverse candidates get an offer 50% of the time (the other 50% are erroneously eliminated at the phone interview stage).

* Qualified, diverse candidates get an offer 75% of the time (25% eliminated at the phone interview stage due to false negatives).

It seems to me that the author is advocating either doing two phone interviews for all candidates, or one phone interview for all candidates. Neither change would alter false positive rates, since false positive rates are 0% at all times.

If you're inclined to point out that all tests have a false positive rate >0%, substitute 0% for 0.00000001% and note that I stated the change in false positive rates could be trivially small to the point of omission in the comment above.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by TimPC on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:40AM (#14954758)
I think the quinessential example of this is reminding people about their bias against minorities. Several studies have shown this drastically reduces false negatives and raises false positives to a level that is no higher than the false positive rate in the non-minority population. This isn't enough to say the false positive rate doesn't raise, but it's more than enough to say increasing false positives doesn't imply unqualified.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by evolve2017 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:38AM (#14957669)
I think we're drifting away from the author's article.

His statement about 'lowering the bar' with respect to decreasing false negatives directly implies a relationship between candidate quality and the false negative rate.

I can't comment on your hiring analogy, as you have more experience in this area than I do. My responses were only to highlight the subtle negative character of the author's statement.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by peak_body_yo on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:45AM (#14955103)
> increased the false positive rate for underrepresented groups I would object to such a statement

Does your recruitment process have a 0% false positive rate? If not, giving more opportunities will yield more false positives unless it's proven that the extra opportunities have a 0% false positive rate.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by princeb on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:07AM (#14956921)
well, if the women google are hiring are not underqualified, then there is no issue and there's nothing wrong with google's diversity programs.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by throw_away_777 on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:57PM (#14954069)
I'd like to see your data supporting the assertion that qualified diverse candidates are rejected at greater rates. The thing is he wouldn't of been fired for arguing the opposite claim, this is clearly discrimination.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by smt88 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:08AM (#14954150)
The data is incredibly easy to find and has been demonstrated for decades. It's an easy experiment: two identical candidates, one of them with an ethnic name (or actor) and one of them is white. It also consistently shows that white candidates do better than black candidates, despite having identical resumes.

This has been shown across society, including applications for housing, police stops, punishments in school, etc. I don't know why employment would be the one exception.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by throw_away_777 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:26AM (#14954287)
Show me the data that this is true at google, which is the company we are talking about. I would be very interested to see this data.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by deong on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:29AM (#14954691)
The burden of proof is on the side arguing there's something "special" about Google. The effect is present everywhere we've looked. Lacking any specific evidence to the contrary, it's present in Google hiring too.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by throw_away_777 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:43AM (#14954772)
I don't usually like to ask for citations, but he said the data was easily found which is clearly false in this case. And there are good reasons to believe google, a company which hires a "VP of Diversity" might be different from the companies previously studied in entirely different industries with entirely different hiring practices and requirements. I know in academia, female applicants are favored in the hard sciences: http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2015/10/new-study-explores-g...
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by smt88 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:07AM (#14954570)
That's just absurd. The only people who have that data would be violating a contract by disclosing it, and I'm not even one of them.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by peacetreefrog on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:29AM (#14954310)
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by stickfigure on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:40AM (#14955077)
A couple quotes:

We found that the public servants engaged in positive (not negative) discrimination towards female and minority candidates

...

Overall, the results indicate the need for caution when moving towards ’blind’ recruitment processes in the Australian Public Service, as de-identification may frustrate efforts aimed at promoting diversity.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:47AM (#14954436)