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Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by adbge on Monday August 07, 2017 @09:41PM (#14952839)
An excellent opportunity to re-read PG's essay, "What You Can't Say". [1]

"What scares me is that there are moral fashions too. They're just as arbitrary, and just as invisible to most people. But they're much more dangerous. Fashion is mistaken for good design; moral fashion is mistaken for good. Dressing oddly gets you laughed at. Violating moral fashions can get you fired, ostracized, imprisoned, or even killed."

[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by sidlls on Monday August 07, 2017 @09:49PM (#14952918)
Applying the notion of "moral fashion" to this doesn't seem appropriate. It also shows a certain blindness to the problems of sexism and racism especially in the context of this former employee's comments.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by the_cyber_pass on Monday August 07, 2017 @09:59PM (#14953025)
Completely disagree and I think the reaction to the post proved his point. Unfortunately this is now easily going to blow up into another donglegate.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by sidlls on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:05PM (#14953082)
What point? His post had a bunch of men's rights dogwhistles presented with a facade of dispassionate, objective reason.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by the_cyber_pass on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:07PM (#14953103)
None of what he said were men's rights dog whistles. If you think this you clearly don't have an ear for them. The closest you could say is he was maybe inspired by Peterson and Slatestarcodex.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by mintplant on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:39AM (#14954374)
Please. I know the standard set of MRA talking points well, having spent way too much time as a teenager in the meta/drama internet cultures. This manifesto [0] hits most of the main ones.

> Note, the same forces that lead men into high pay/high stress jobs in tech and leadership cause men to take undesirable and dangerous jobs like coal mining, garbage collection, and firefighting, and suffer 93% of work-related deaths.

> Feminism has made great progress in freeing women from the female gender role, but men are still very much tied to the male gender role.

> Programs, mentoring, and classes only for people with a certain gender or race

> Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of humanities and social scientists learn left (about 95%), which creates enormous confirmation bias, changes what’s being studied, and maintains myths like social constructionism and the gender wage gap.

> males are biologically disposable

> We have extensive government and Google programs, fields of study, and legal and social norms to protect women, but when a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men, he’s labelled as a misogynist and whiner. Nearly every difference between men and women is interpreted as a form of women’s oppression.

> political correctness, which constrains discourse and is complacent to the extremely sensitive PC-authoritarians that use violence and shaming to advance their cause

Copy/paste any of those into an r/MensRights thread and you'll fit right in.

[0] https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di...

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by sillysaurus3 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:37AM (#14954362)
None of what he said were men's rights dog whistles.

Well... https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/6sa9f6/google_f...

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by the_cyber_pass on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:40AM (#14954382)
Is that our guy? He is talking about him in the 3rd person later on down the line. How is one reddit comment even relevant to this right now?
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by sillysaurus3 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:45AM (#14954420)
I'm just trying to be neutral in all of this. If you look through that thread, the internet at large seems to be taking this as an opportunity to flex men's rights issues pretty heavily. The reason they're doing this seems to be because of the content of his writings rather than the fact that he got fired.

EDIT: Actually, it's unfair to say "the internet at large." HN, reddit, and twitter all seem to be taking the news in unique ways.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by the_cyber_pass on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:28AM (#14954684)
I appreciate that, but I don't think raising up some random guy on reddit is a valid way of drawing a conclusion.

Person A thinks X.

Person B who belongs a group the blue tribe hates also thinks X.

Therefore person A is a bad person because they agree with person B about X.

We have failed to prove that the group person B belongs to is actually bad and not just an exercise in signaling and we are also trying to smear person A by saying they agree with some other completely unrelated person who may belong to a distasteful group. Additionally X can still be correct and both people can be distasteful, but it wont change the fact that X is correct.

Sorry if I am not being clear, it's been a long day.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by cthulha on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:12PM (#14953162)
You might want to read Slavoj Zizek on ideology, since that's a deeper philosophical look at the same phenomena. Here's the quick video of him explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk8ibrfXvpQ

Basically, you might think about one thing as 'moral fashion' and another as 'social good', but you are really comparing two fashions and pretending to be objective.

To make a concrete example out of the situation in front of us: if there is proof that diverse companies perform better (https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter) then his reasoning about how diversity initiatives are wasteful must be incorrect.

So to say that he is 'correct' means to turn your back on empirical argument, and to base things in identity politics.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by dropstickle on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:19PM (#14953222)
If diverse companies perform better, this would surely mean that there is some sort of difference between the sexes? How else could diversity have an impact on the bottom line of a company?
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by Zeklandia on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:48PM (#14954011)
Rather, it shows that having people from diverse backgrounds and diverse experiences works more effectively than a social 'monoculture'.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by sliverstorm on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:49AM (#14954446)
Well, if women really make 87% of what men make for the same work (or whatever the latest number is), it could save the company 13% or more on car insur- I mean, labor costs.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by dropstickle on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:07AM (#14954571)
If it is really true that women make 87% of men for the same work, any company that is driven by profit would exclusively hire women. The alternative would be that sexism is so rampant that it trumps profit driven motivation, am I missing something, or is that what you are suggesting?
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by sliverstorm on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:17AM (#14954624)
I'm not really suggesting anything other than that, it's a hypothetical explanation that disproves the notion, "if diverse companies do better, it MUST be because of differences in the sexes". Admittedly not a high-effort comment.

In answer to the rest of your comment, it's anybody's guess and nobody agrees why. Maybe the stat is wrong, maybe the sexism is just that rampant, maybe the women-only candidate pool is inadequate (small), maybe there is a performance difference, etc.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by dropstickle on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:51AM (#14954816)
Ah I see. Thanks for expanding.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by Banthum on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:36AM (#14954347)
>if there is proof that diverse companies perform better then his reasoning about how diversity initiatives are wasteful must be incorrect.

Absolutely not true. There are many other possible reasons for such a correlation. A few examples:

It's possible better-performing companies could attract more non-white applicants.

Or, that better-performing companies could be have extra resources, which they then spend on diversity initiatives, where poor-performing companies are desperate to survive.

Or the independent variable: Being in the Valley makes companies perform better, and also makes them want to hire more non-whites, but these are both independent outcomes simply caused by being in the Valley. In this scenario, it's even possible that diversity harms performance, but the effect is more than compensated for by being in the Valley.

Or, it could be random chance; outcomes are dominated by a few high-performing companies, which just happen to be genetically diverse.

Or any of many other possible connections and confounders. This is really basic stuff.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by cthulha on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:08AM (#14954903)
Thanks for expanding on that aspect! This is exactly the sort of things people should have brought up.

I feel like the suspicious thing is that people didn't react in this way.

Why was this not a glaring problem that his supporters rushed in to answer?

If I told you I had an elegant model for some chemical reactions and could predict, say, the thermal energy released in an experiment, you might look at the model and think it's great.

If it doesn't match what is measured in the real world, then it's possible the model is correct: could be an environmental factor or a problem with the apparatus etc. But I need to answer questions around the gap between prediction and reality, rather than to rely on my perceptions of the elegance of the model.

That's where I think this veers off into identity politics.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ajross on Monday August 07, 2017 @09:48PM (#14952907)
This isn't an issue of "fashion" or "opinion". It's an issue of whether the guy is right or wrong, and if he's wrong[1] whether or not he's caused damage to his employer[2], and if that is true whether it is a firing offense[3].

You don't get to avoid discussion[4] about those subtitled points by retreating to some kind of invented safe space here. Out with it. Is he right?

[1] He is.

[2] He has.

[3] It is.

[4] Yeah, I'm just asserting without evidence too. But only to avoid the pointless flames that result.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by avaer on Monday August 07, 2017 @09:56PM (#14952986)
Right, wrong, damage, and safety are precisely the dressed-up fashions PG's essay talks about.
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Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ctlby on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:16PM (#14953195)
Please stop peddling this science denialism. There is great consensus outside the intellectually-bankrupt fields of sociology and gender studies.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ajross on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:31PM (#14953350)
If you're going to assert a scientific consensus, my friend, you're going to have to cite one.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ctlby on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:01PM (#14953636)
Start with Halpern's "Sex Differences in Cognitive Abilities" and follow the bibliography where it takes you (I really would like to provide the references, but just I don't have the patience to copy them now). For something rigorous that's digitally available, start with sapinker's slides from his 2005 debate [1]. Modern understanding is quite similar, only with new evidence and insights from evolutionary psychology and neurobiology.

[1] https://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05/pinker.slides.html

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by great_psy on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:04PM (#14953074)
Two words are not a valid reference. If you want to be taken seriously, put some effort in your arguments.