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Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by falcolas on Monday August 07, 2017 @04:46PM (#14951123)
Speaking as a Montanan here.

The policy of "let some fires burn" has been in practice for a few decades now in our corner of the woods. Ever since the Yellowstone fire in the 80's, we've focused our efforts on containment instead of extinguishment (i.e. make a best effort to keep it away from human settlements); letting land lost to the fires just burn out naturally while stopping them from claiming too much land. Should we let them burn more? Perhaps.

But it's never so easy. The cost of just letting some go when they're a couple dozen or even hundred acres can spiral out of control when you're suddenly attempting to stop a 300,000 acre fire that has already burned out 16 homes and is threatening towns. Yes, firefighters die fighting fires. Civilians also die when an uncontained fire goes from a theoretical threat on the horizon to consuming their house in a matter of minutes.

Fire doesn't respect property boundaries, and can travel a tremendous speeds (upwards of 10mph). And they aren't really like floods - it's not just the forests that burn, it's the flat lands with all the nice dead grasses. Grass fires can move even faster than forest fires, given a wind to push it along.

Humans aren't the only ones affected, either. The livestock which used that land for feed still has to be fed, or face starvation. Argue all you want about the inhumanity of our treatment of livestock generally; letting them starve due to a lack of hay (tied to a lack of money) is worse.

There are some who feel that they should not have to support those affected by natural disasters. I'm sure others will be happy to return the favor.

(300,000 acres ~= 142,000 ha)

https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/5399/

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by coryrc on Monday August 07, 2017 @08:19PM (#14952393)
Firefighters are dying to protect the private property of people who live in the forests so they can save money not building a fire-safe house. We need regular burns to keep the brush down, but we can't because rich people's houses are in the path. The forest was there first; it's time to stop protecting people from financial loss because of their poor decisions.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by falcolas on Monday August 07, 2017 @08:32PM (#14952473)
Rich, poor, farmers, ranchers, middle class; all kinds have property in forests. And firefighters work to protect them all pretty much equally.

As for your last sentence, that could apply evenly to any natural disaster. The [ocean|tectonic plates|flood plains|super cells] were there first. Let's stop protecting [hurricane|tornado|tsunami|earthquake] victims from loss due to their poor decisions.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by coryrc on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:15AM (#14954932)
Nobody tries to stop hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunami, or earthquakes because there's no way to stop them. Fire needs to happen and forests are being destroyed by the lack of it.

And, no, we shouldn't be bailing out people who build stick-built homes in flood plains. There are house designs built to withstand occasional flooding; you don't want to spend for that, then you shouldn't be bailed out.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by cakedoggie on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:52PM (#14954038)
> Rich, poor, farmers, ranchers, middle class; all kinds have property in forests.

And none of them should.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by Gustomaximus on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:00AM (#14954092)
Why? Have you spent time living outside a city?
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by cakedoggie on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:17AM (#14954620)
Yes, but so? We shouldn't just be indiscriminately building anywhere we want, and risking lives.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by jonknee on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:51AM (#14955475)
Well then we should get rid of a lot of our cities because they are disasters waiting to happen. California has many millions of people living near fault lines. Talk about risking lives!
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by Gustomaximus on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:58PM (#14954083)
In Australia we regularly have 'back burning' or 'controlled burns' where the fire brigade waits for a cool, non windy day and sets a bush fire around houses. This happens every few years so that when bush fires occur the area around houses has less combustible material and either places dont need firefighters or the firefighters can more easily protect property, letting the fire do its thing in non-critical areas.

Also through bush land they cut roads which also service as firebreaks, that way bush fires hit these gaps and should stop a proportion of the time.

Anyway, my point is I dont know we need to hate on 'rich people's houses' because 1) I would say even more ordinary people have houses in the bush, at least in Australia, and this feels like personal hatred without knowing your area and 2) Australia has clearly shown people can manage an enviroment (with occasional exceptions) to live within a bush/forest fire area.

I'm not sure how supported or funded this is in the states. And in Australia we have large volunteer groups of bush firefighters that help with back burns and when larger outbreaks of bush fires occur to increase manpower.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by nnfy on Monday August 07, 2017 @08:58PM (#14952619)
This isn't a simple class thing. Rural areas aren't just populated by rich evil bankers with mountaintop villas; they're predominantly settled by poor rural whites who have owned land for generation and do not have the means to easily leave.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by jgh on Monday August 07, 2017 @09:58PM (#14953017)
I believe, at least in California, households that have taken some effort to make their property more resilient to fire are given higher priority. I heard an interview with a firefighter on the radio talking about this a few weeks back.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by sliverstorm on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:04PM (#14953066)
Similarly, I hear houses that have been allowed to become completely indefensible (e.g., boughs on the roof, no fire clearing) are simply abandoned.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by twothamendment on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:35PM (#14961671)
That depends on where you live. I can't have tress within 30 feed of my house, had to have a fire rated roof, etc. I wasn't going to complain about rules like that, especially with ash and embers raining down last night!

I've seen some very nice houses with tress so close you can reach out the window and touch the trunk. I guess they have another home to go to when that one burns.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by sliverstorm on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:02PM (#14963313)
No, I think they just expect firefighters will lay down their lives defending their property, and installing a fire rated roof because you live in a fire zone is "burdensome".

(by abandoned, I meant the firefighters abandon the doomed houses that do not have defensible space)

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by coryrc on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:16AM (#14954938)
It still prevents regular fires from being set in that area.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by twothamendment on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:32PM (#14961638)
For what it is worth, the huge fire linked to by the parent wasn't in a forest, but I suppose people shouldn't live outside of a city?

For some of us, living in a city seems as stupid as living outside of one seems to others. Each has their risk, but when a person is mugged or killed in a city I don't blame them for a poor decision.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by nthcolumn on Monday August 07, 2017 @08:13PM (#14952367)
A huge problem in Australia as you probably know where we do get quite a few bush-fires is down to the huge build up in combustible materials. This'd be a fairly modern problem in that the indigenous peoples used to do a lot of the house-keeping by actually setting controlled fires and managing the bush in a sustainable way for themselves. Would that also have been the case for your own indigenous population? It's so bloody dry and the bush is like a tinderbox, lightning strikes certain times of year now cause incredible destruction where years ago they'd have burnt out a few hundred acres and been done with, creating sort of natural corridors and that. I can certainly attest to the speed at which fires move having watched them leaping gorges and seeing sparks dance like sprites across the highway in front and back of my car from a fire a half mile away, fair near shat my pants I can tell you. The fire itself creates its own great wind - you can feel the heat in it. It drives itself along as fast as a car. Far as I know, native animals run towards the fire rather than away from it, and many if not most do escape out the back.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by Mz on Monday August 07, 2017 @08:17PM (#14952389)
Some years back, the federal government in the US decided to get strict about protecting certain natural areas. This resulted in a build up of dry brush because people were not allowed to do things like collect firewood. The end result was some of the worst forest fires in US history.

Humans need to be good stewards to the land and stop framing themselves as somehow not a part of "nature."

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by waterphone on Monday August 07, 2017 @08:52PM (#14952591)
Yes, the native populations often did the same in the Americas. But in the early 1900s, the U.S. decided its forests were an important resource—both as a source of timber for military use and to have timber sales to raise money, and declared war on wildfire with full suppression tactics universally applied. Now recognized as a mistake, tactics have changed, but we'll be suffering the consequences of 100 years of fire suppression for a long time.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by branja on Monday August 07, 2017 @08:16PM (#14952382)
The Native Americans of the Appalachians used to burn the brush down in the forests and otherwise cultivate the land, yes.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by xl on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:28AM (#14954300)
I'very always wondered how you tease that apart from the native people simply not having the ability to combat naturally caused wildfires. When we suppress them, we employ a ton of technology (from chainsaws to C130s full of red dust) that weren't available back then.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by angerbot on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:54AM (#14954484)
First Nations in Western Canada would deliberately set fire to areas. There is a very old tradition of having "fire keepers" who were responsible for burning areas and ensuring that it was done safely. Traditional wisdom was that every part of the forest should be burned at least every hundred years. Here's[0] an interesting article from the CBC on the topic.

[0]: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fire-fighting...

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by Someone on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:56PM (#14959795)
If you aren't attached to stuff that is attached to the ground or too heavy to move, you don't really need to combat fires, do you?

You either walk around the fire carrying your belongings, or you light a fire downwind from where you are and move onto the burned down ground before the original fire reaches you.

Uncomfortable, but (unless you are really unlucky) survivable.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by motowilliams on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:24AM (#14954663)
Another Montanan here as well.

As the Lolo Peak Fire burns 6 miles from my house it is frustrating to me that the DNRC's hands are tied by regulation that prevents them thinning and keep our forests healthy. It is both a revenue stream for our school system and an important role in keeping the woods healthy. Unfortunately both wildlife and habitat conservation has some aspects that are counter-intuitive to most folks when they ask why taking an animal or taking a tree actually helps in the long run. This isn't meant to be a pro/anti regulation stance but a call for balance.

There is also the most important factor in fighting these fires and currently that number is 2, as in we've lost 2 firefighters during this season's wild fires.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by twothamendment on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:12PM (#14959967)
This might set a record for the number of Montanan's posting! I'm in Montana too and spent last night watching 4 fires started by lightning. Some places not too far away were evacuated. We had ash and embers raining down last night. It is crazy to see let it burn articles without a companion that promotes healthy forest management by logging. I'm all for contain and let burn, but the amount of fuel on the ground in places is insane.

I had my own property logged - luckily you can still do that. I cleared around my house and thinned out the rest. It didn't destroy the forest, it created jobs, created some lumber and some pulp for paper. In a few years the remaining trees will grow straighter, stronger and better resist insects. How is this bad? It is frustrating to see so much public land overgrown to the point it can't be used and isn't good for wildlife.

Good forest management has to include some logging. If you disagree, please stop using paper, especially toilet paper.

Thanks to all the men and women who rush towards the fire when others are leaving. Listening to them on the radio last night - they were doing a great job under pressure and while dealing with some nervous people.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by acchow on Monday August 07, 2017 @08:16PM (#14952376)
> focused our efforts on containment instead of extinguishment (i.e. make a best effort to keep it away from human settlements)

The line between extinguishment and containment blurs as human settlement expands.

Also, shouldn't humans just stop settling near forests altogether? Easy way to incentivize this - stop extinguishing the fires - they're supposed to burn anyway.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by sliverstorm on Monday August 07, 2017 @08:51PM (#14952579)
But it's never so easy

Yeah, sure, there's problems. But mother nature cares not. The fuel load will continue to build until it burns, unless we remove it ourselves. That's the shortsightednes of "let fires burn but...", IMO. One day it will burn, whether you like it or not, unless you're willing to pay from now until kingdom come for manual fuel reduction. The only question is will it burn on our terms or hers?

In our area, there were a number of properties that were lost, because the owners did not follow the rules about fuel control around their property, allowing boughs onto their roof and not clearing back from the buildings. I pin a lot of the policy problems on those sorts of folks. They haven't realized we have to live with fire, like the pines around us. Stopping it is a losing game.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by twothamendment on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:08PM (#14961405)
"...unless you're willing to pay from now until kingdom come for manual fuel reduction..."

We can't do this everywhere, but I reduced the fuel on my property for exactly $0. No government grants, no tax payer money - the timber paid for it. As a bonus it was done in the winter so it disturbed very little ground.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by mschuster91 on Monday August 07, 2017 @04:59PM (#14951218)
> Grass fires can move even faster than forest fires, given a wind to push it along.

In earlier times, farm fields actually were separated by bushes, patches of rocks, tiny rivers, whatever. Humans have flattened all of this, in order to make really huge strips of farmland that can be worked on really, really efficiently by machines. Not only has this practice destroyed the living space of small animals like rabbits or birds, but it also contributes massively to this problem as there's nothing left to stop or slow down winds :(

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by planteen on Monday August 07, 2017 @05:54PM (#14951582)
Where are you talking about? That isn't true on the plains of North America. The plain was very treeless, save next to water, where there are plenty of trees. Man has created far more barriers - roads, wind breaks around farms, etc. East of the 100th meridian, most land is divided in a perfect grid with roads along section lines in both the US and Canada. Further west, the lines may be further apart, but there still are plenty of roads compared to pre-1860s when there were none.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by falcolas on Monday August 07, 2017 @06:09PM (#14951669)
Roads don't do much to stop wind. I've never seen many man-made wind breaks which weren't directly related to stopping snow drifts in specific areas.

Embers travel over roads remarkably well.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by planteen on Monday August 07, 2017 @06:45PM (#14951901)
Going back to what OP said:

> In earlier times, farm fields actually were separated by bushes, patches of rocks, tiny rivers, whatever.

My point is that the modern prairie is far more divided than it was 200 years ago. And groves of trees are not just for snow drifts. They provide much protection from wind. To protect from snow drifts, you typically build a very distinct looking snow fence which allows you to control where the drift forms (e.g., not on a road).

If you look at pictures of homesteads of South Dakota in the 1880s, there are virtually no trees anywhere, including around farms. There are far more today. Hence why I am asking where the OP is talking about.

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by Gustomaximus on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:02AM (#14954108)
The context is about stopping fires. And roads do serve this purpose well. In Australia we cut roads through bushland for this purpose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebreak

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by maxerickson on Monday August 07, 2017 @07:29PM (#14952160)
Even when there are no obstructions, there are regular jogs in the PLSS (because a grid doesn't lie flat on a spheroid):

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5653133,-95.6495983,2380m/da...

Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by notatoad on Monday August 07, 2017 @05:17PM (#14951342)
what i see in rural alberta still looks like most farm fields (i.e. each quarter section) are separated by a line of trees, bushes, or at the very least roads or irrigation ditches. windbreaks are no less important to agriculture now than they were 100 years ago.
Re:Let Forest Fires Burn by falcolas on Monday August 07, 2017 @05:08PM (#14951278)
Yeah - though at least we've learned a little from the dust bowl lesson.