News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by Animats on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:55AM (#14948455)
No, the 2008 crash wasn't a black swan. It just came from the debt side, rather than the equity side. It was clear this was coming. In 2004, I wrote this, on my "downside.com": [1]

The next crash looks to be housing-related. Fannie Mae is in trouble. But not because of their accounting irregularities. The problem is more fundamental. They borrow short, lend long, and paper over the resulting interest rate risk with derivatives. In a credit crunch, the counterparties will be squeezed hard. The numbers are huge. And there's no public record of who those counterparties are.

Derivatives allow the creation of securities with a low probability of loss coupled with a very high but unlikely loss. When unlikely events are uncorrected (I meant uncorrelated), as with domestic fire insurance, this is a viable model. When unlikely events are correlated, as with interest rate risk, everything breaks at once. Remember "portfolio insurance"? Same problem.

Mortgage financing is so tied to public policy that predictions based on fundamentals are not possible. All we can do is to point out that huge stresses are accumulating in that sector. At some point, as interest rates increase, something will break in a big way. The result may look like the 1980s S&L debacle.

It took longer than I expected for that to kick in, but it happened.

[1] http://downside.com/news.html#comingmortgagecrunch

Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by simonh on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:32PM (#14948783)
The Economist had strings of articles on this, about how the models used to price vast sums in derivatives were fundamentally flawed, the risks to the financial system, lack of regulatory tools to address possible issues. Warren Buffet famously called CDS/CDOs weapons of financial mass destruction. But when people are making money and everything looks sunny side up, warnings like yours are rarely heeded.
Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by ringaroundthetx on Monday August 07, 2017 @06:15PM (#14951700)
so "black swan" is a paradox. a black swan is when something that happens outside of the models. it being in YOUR models means it wasn't a black swan for YOU.

as such there are probably no such things as black swan events. I mean, until there is. Its more like Schrödinger's swan.

Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by Animats on Monday August 07, 2017 @06:36PM (#14951853)
For this kind of event, you can see the pressure building up well in advance. Often, it's not clear what's going to break, but at some point, something has to give. A real "black swan" event was Hurricane Sandy. Flooding of Lower Manhattan was not expected.
Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by rtx on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:04PM (#14948554)
What looks risky now?
Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by cinquemb on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:12PM (#14948611)
> 2009-05-31 - Conventional wisdom

>The future is now in the hands of political forces. We can't predict that from fundamentals. So we have no further predictions at this time.

So diversifying ones portfolio based on ones portfolio exposure to "political risks"? Usually you see people trade on that in currency markets? If most of ones portfolio is dominated by a single currency (and hard to liquidate to another asset?) one will have the most exposure to the political risks in that particular locale?

Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by Animats on Monday August 07, 2017 @06:42PM (#14951889)
That reflects the TARP bailout and the Fed's policy on interest rates. The Fed bailed out the banking system by lending money to banks at very low rates, which they could then profitably re-lend at much higher rates, allowing banks to pay back the TARP loans. My point was that this was a political decision, one not predictable by financial analysis.

Through all that neither the dollar nor the Euro moved all that much compared to other markets. Housing, oil, stocks, and gold all moved more.

Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by ouid on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:26PM (#14948733)
student loans.
Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by cylinder on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:48PM (#14948933)
The government owns student loans.
Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by bb611 on Monday August 07, 2017 @06:26PM (#14951783)
> The government owns student loans.

To back up your point, the US federal government guarantees the vast majority of the student loan market: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FGCCSAQ027S

I believe the total student debt market is estimated somewhere between $1.3-1.4 trillion these days, so at least 77.5% backed by US taxpayers. I don't know what TARP topped out at, but I doubt it was 75% of banking assets.

Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by ouid on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:49PM (#14948943)
A) not all of them.

B) the government owned the mortgage debt, given that they paid it.

Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by cinquemb on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:55PM (#14949006)
I think the main question is how to get access to capitalize on the downside risks of A).

- Find out who has exposure to student loans portfolios and what percent is non performing?

- Find out what other assets A) is holding that will have liquidation pressure if *-swan occurs?

- What extent is B) tied to A)?

- What pressures B) would face long term due to non performance of student loans that would influence A) and the larger market of assets under the jurisdiction of B)?

- How much could be made from theoretically capitalizing on the downside risks of A) vs other assets in the mean time?

Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by uptown on Monday August 07, 2017 @06:31PM (#14951821)
Subprime auto loans.
Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by omegaham on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:47AM (#14956777)
I see this as fundamentally different, mostly because it is far easier to repo a car and auction it off than it is to foreclose on a house and sell it to someone else.

Another thing is that no one is wildly pricing cars; the fact that lots of subprime people are buying cars does not drive up the price of cars for everyone else. Thus, if a whole bunch of subprime borrowers default, the rest of us aren't sitting there with a car that's actually worth a quarter of what we thought it would be worth.

We also don't keep an enormous share of our equity in cars the way that we do in housing.

Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by uptown on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @10:59AM (#14958450)
True. Except it may be able to be used as a proxy for larger economic issues. If borrowers are defaulting on their car loans at a higher rate than usual, it begs the questions: "why" and "why now"?
Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by GrumpyNl on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:18PM (#14948658)
Everything based on crypto currency.
Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by arglebarnacle on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:29PM (#14948758)
It only counts if it's something that's riskier than it seems. Everyone knows cryptocurrency is extremely risky, the problem in 2008 was that these packaged mortgage products were far riskier than they appeared, far riskier than they were rated by Moody's, S&P, etc.

Maybe you only meant your comment as snark, but if not it's important to understand the difference between simple risky investments and potential structural flaws in the finance system, like the ones we saw in the financial crisis.

Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by deafcalculus on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:13PM (#14949147)
Do you think there's another housing bubble now?
Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by Animats on Monday August 07, 2017 @06:52PM (#14951943)
To answer that, look at the ratio between median house price and median income. Historically, that's around 2.2. Freddy Mac says 3.5 is the new normal. It got up to around 4.7 before the 2008 crash, and peaked around 10 for California.

This is a measure of whether people can make their mortgage payments. When that ratio gets too high, foreclosures rise.

The Economist has an interactive chart, but, annoyingly, they don't let you see the absolute ratio number, just its trend.[2]

[1] http://www.freddiemac.com/research/insight/20160531_how_to_w... [2] https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/08/daily-...

Re:Show HN: Is the stock market going to crash? by JKCalhoun on Monday August 07, 2017 @04:11PM (#14950857)
I don't see it.