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Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by js8 on Monday July 31, 2017 @01:07PM (#14893829)
I don't understand why is he letting the other people to define that there should be a conflict? For instance, in salary negotiations - I don't get why so many people (in IT) are opposed to idea of open salaries or at least a professional organization.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by jimbokun on Monday July 31, 2017 @01:21PM (#14893985)
That's Magi thinking, not warrior thinking.

If you are applying for a job at a company, there is no chance you are going to change their entire compensation strategy as a precondition to getting the job. So it's either engage Warrior mode and negotiate, or move on and interview somewhere else.

If you found a company, or in a position in your current company that upper management will listen to you, that's a better opportunity to switch to Magi mode and discuss how to change the entire compensation policy to something better for everyone involved.

Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by js8 on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @12:52AM (#14897964)
> That's Magi thinking, not warrior thinking.

I think you're right. But the GP is apparently more comfortable as a Magi; so why not make it into an advantage?

Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by TimPC on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:02PM (#14894450)
Many people feel open salaries and professional organizations inadequately handle specializations. In University sectors there have been effects like: CS lecturers not allowed to be paid more because positions are harder to fill vs say Fine Art History lecturers. I'm not saying that's bad overall, but I can certainly see why CS lecturers might not like it.

I think it's fairly easy for these models to fail at bringing in experts because they put extreme downward pressure on the gains from expertise and aggressively enforce regression to the mean. If someone makes twice as much as someone else you have to justify it not just in terms of market demand and a personal outlook on the skillset but also in terms of the morale effects of paying someone else twice as much openly. I'm not sure that's good for many parties and I'm quite certain it's bad for at least some. I think the likely effect is fewer people in security and fewer people in AI at the companies that do these things.

Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by pmoriarty on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:11PM (#14894519)
"CS lecturers not allowed to be paid more because positions are harder to fill vs say Fine Art History lecturers"

Why does this sound backwards to me? If a position is hard to fill, wouldn't you want to pay the person more so that they don't leave?

Conversely, if a position is easy to fill, wouldn't the university pay less, since if the person leaves they'll be easy to replace?

How does paying someone less because their position is hard to fill make any kind of sense? What am I missing here?

Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by chiph on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:31PM (#14894690)
It's so no one's feelings are hurt if they find out that the new associate professor in the hard-to-fill position is making more than a tenured full professor in a different department.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by dv_dt on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:54PM (#14894870)
Because another game is being played in parallel to the direct one you're thinking about. In the parallel game, if you let people who expect good salaries go, you do go through more immediate replacement costs, but are likely to eventually come across people who aren't so demanding of their salaries and get an accumulation of those, then the employer can win out in the longer term.

I don't know if this strategy even has to pay off in actuality, in the long term, but that actual performance of the strategy isn't as important as maintaining that model of control of labor costs.

Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by opportune on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:13PM (#14894535)
I assume the university has a policy in place that all lecturers are to be paid the same. And the original commenter was alluding to this precisely because it is backwards.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by TimPC on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:50AM (#14954807)
I think what you're missing here as that unions often limit the ability to respond to market conditions in much the same way government does. Responding to specific minutiae is not terribly hard if they personally harm you. Accounting for them in an impersonal regulatory framework being made at arms-length is a much harder problem even if that framework solves other problems.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by js8 on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @12:55AM (#14897973)
> How does paying someone less because their position is hard to fill make any kind of sense? What am I missing here?

I don't think you're missing anything. Free markets (or supply and demand) are perfectly symmetric. That's why they cannot enforce any kind of morality, like meritocracy, whatever it is. Only people can do that and it will always have a cost in the completely free market.

Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by canadian123456 on Monday July 31, 2017 @01:24PM (#14894023)
Open salaries will bring down the salary of anyone willing to negotiate.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by pavel_lishin on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:00PM (#14894425)
How so?
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by manyhands on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:15PM (#14894560)
Employees who negotiate higher salaries are subsidized by their meek coworkers.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by chrisbennet on Monday July 31, 2017 @04:01PM (#14895401)
I suppose that could be true but I kinda doubt that in the case where all the workers were meek, that the company would altruistically pay everyone a bit more.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by canadian123456 on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:20PM (#14894599)
They can afford to pay those who negotiate closer to their true value (often still significantly less) is because they pay the vast majority of people less.

The only way transparent salaries help the majority instead of being used as a tool for businesses to just say, "We only pay 100k/yr, that's what everyone makes" is if there is some body enforcing fair pay.

Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by accountyaccount on Monday July 31, 2017 @03:01PM (#14894940)
A manager could then point to the salary of someone in the same position and say

"Jane gets paid $X in the same position, it would be unfair to give you a raise and not her"

I don't work somewhere with transparent salaries and I already get that excuse — I've more than once heard "you're kind of already at the top of our range for X position" and "if we pay you anymore you'll be making more than me!"

Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by PhasmaFelis on Monday July 31, 2017 @11:26PM (#14897691)
> I don't work somewhere with transparent salaries and I already get that excuse

It sounds like managers will be doing that either way. With open salaries they at least wouldn't be able to lie about it.

Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by maxxxxx on Monday July 31, 2017 @05:00PM (#14895859)
There is a very good chance the manager lied to you.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by accountyaccount on Monday July 31, 2017 @10:45PM (#14897551)
story of my life
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by JustSomeNobody on Monday July 31, 2017 @01:17PM (#14893923)
The people usually opposed are the ones who wish to maintain some sort of control.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by PhasmaFelis on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:06PM (#14894475)
Why is this (currently) being downvoted? The purpose of closed salaries is to keep wages down.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by PhasmaFelis on Monday July 31, 2017 @05:43PM (#14896148)
It just baffles me that people are drive-by downvoting this on Hacker News of all places. I think most of us here agree that transparency is desirable in government, software development, security, and so many other areas. Why do employers get a pass with the tired old "we're keeping secrets from you for your own good" line?
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by BurningFrog on Monday July 31, 2017 @06:35PM (#14896478)
HN also agrees that privacy is desirable in just about as many areas.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by PhasmaFelis on Monday July 31, 2017 @11:12PM (#14897639)
How is my privacy protected by a rule that says I'm not allowed to disclose my salary to my coworkers? Because that's what we're talking about, not just that the company doesn't publish salaries.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by Retra on Monday July 31, 2017 @07:59PM (#14896886)
Well, I down-voted it because it's vague, in-actionable, and conspiratorial.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by PhasmaFelis on Monday July 31, 2017 @08:04PM (#14896915)
Are you arguing that the purpose of secret salaries isn't to keep employees from a better understanding of how much the company would be willing to pay them? We can have that discussion, but it would help if you made a coherent counterproposal. If you claim that open salaries cause significant friction between employees, for example, please cite comparisons to the countries and business where open salaries are common; there's enough of them that data should be available.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by Retra on Friday August 04, 2017 @09:41PM (#14933788)
I've made no argument at all. If you'd seriously like me to make one, I'm going to require funding.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by RodericDay on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:21PM (#14894609)
Everyone opposed to public salaries thinks they're the special snowflakes with a secret sweetheart deal.
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by stephengillie on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:32PM (#14894699)
Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. - John Steinbeck (disputed)
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by adrianratnapala on Monday July 31, 2017 @03:41PM (#14895246)
This is a comforting but dangerous illusion for the American left. It leads to failed political tactics like John Kerry's "misery index", where he tried to tell voters how badly off they were.

This stance fools the left into thinking they need to tell the working class that they are losers. People react badly to that; they will happily forgo new welfare programs and regulatory subsidies and will instead rail against the status assertions behind it all.

Which brings us to Trumpism...

Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by ptrckbrwn on Monday July 31, 2017 @03:58PM (#14895379)
^ found the libertarian
Re:Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary ... by gbacon on Monday July 31, 2017 @01:33PM (#14894161)
The proponents are the ones who will not mind their own business.

Rock ’Em Sock ’Em Strawmen!