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Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by TeMPOraL on Sunday July 30, 2017 @01:23PM (#14886907)
One thing I don't understand about the "induced demand" thing - surely there must be a limit to this? If you keep expanding roads, at some point you must hit the situation in which your capacity is greater than the number of people even remotely interested in traveling the road...

I suppose the limit might be quite high, but I've never seen it discussed at all.

Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by ComradeTaco on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:12PM (#14887102)
There is a functional limit for induced demand! But it effectively can't be reached in urban and suburban areas because cars scale really poorly. Cars don't scale well for three main reasons:

(1) Cost. Building roads and highways inflicts both huge upfront capital costs and maintenance costs. A typical highway line has a throughput of 2,000 cars per hour. (2) Real Estate. Building the level of roads necessary to meet induced demand+ would take up an extremely large amount of land that can only be used for vehicles. (3) Local Roads. Local roads can only absorb so much capacity and they have functional throughput limits. If you wanted to make them faster, homeowners couldn't have driveways.

If you really wanted to, you could possibly make a city where driving is king and there is effectively no congestion. It would just be absurdly expensive and hostile to everyone who doesn't have access to car.

Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by qu1j0t3 on Sunday July 30, 2017 @05:29PM (#14887931)
> you could possibly make a city where driving is king and there is effectively no congestion. It would just be absurdly expensive and hostile to everyone who doesn't have access to car.

This is exactly what has been done in most of North America, except for the "no congestion" part.

Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by pas on Sunday July 30, 2017 @05:59PM (#14888059)
Only cost is important for tunnels, because there's still space sufficient for hundreds of layers of tunnels below cities.
Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by jcranmer on Sunday July 30, 2017 @06:22PM (#14888170)
Only if you build tunnels that no one can get to. Road tunnels still need to obey grade and (horizontal and vertical) curvature restrictions. For example, every story down you push a tunnel, every city block longer an access ramp needs to be. And the deeper you make tunnels, the more difficult ventilation and pumping becomes.
Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by zootam on Sunday July 30, 2017 @07:26PM (#14888439)
theoretically one could avoid vertical curvature issues by connecting the tunnels with large shafts, similar to elevators in skyscrapers.
Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by chiefofgxbxl on Sunday July 30, 2017 @10:50PM (#14889168)
This may slow down traffic, based on the vertical speed of the elevators and how quickly people in cars can board the elevator.

I'm not sure which one would be quicker: having a really long access ramp (long because of the tunnel's depth), or having to wait in line to board an elevator that moves quite slowly.

Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by aedron on Monday July 31, 2017 @09:42AM (#14891844)
Musk's system uses elevators.
Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by vidarh on Monday July 31, 2017 @02:31AM (#14889898)
Now figure out how to get people up and down, and how to cool them. Places like London has problems with both already.
Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by thatfrenchguy on Sunday July 30, 2017 @08:34PM (#14888716)
Look at Paris, this is not true.
Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by Tiktaalik on Sunday July 30, 2017 @01:38PM (#14886976)
In discussions of supply and demand, something that isn't often discussed is the real, physical limits of supply creation in terms of construction time, costs, manpower and such. Demand is more flexible.

This reality is also frequently ignored in the housing conversation when people advocate the solution to high prices is to simply add more supply, as if it's a given that supply could be created fast enough to overtake demand. I find that no one really ever does the work, taking into account the friction of real life on supply creation, to figure out if that's likely to be the case.

Re:Hypnotized by Hyperloop by dagss on Sunday July 30, 2017 @06:42PM (#14888262)
The limit is very high because it is not just the current pooulation, but all the new housing that is also induced. Where people live is a functon of transportation.