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Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by no2empire on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:28AM (#14884673)
Faurisson was sentenced to jail for "denying the Holocaust" as you put it. Chomsky believed Faurisson had the right of free speech "even if Faurisson were to be a rabid anti-Semite and fanatic pro-Nazi" as Chomsky's statement said. Chomsky said to use his statement as wished, and it was put as the preface of a Faurisson book.

When people ask him about this Chomsky says he has signed hundreds of free speech petitions and free speech should not be removed just because he disagrees with the person, citing Thomas Jefferson. Some people believe in free speech, some think people with certain critical views of Nazi era nationality policy towards Jews should be jailed. In the USA, the free speech view tends to win, and this is where Chomsky is from.

Hezbollah has 12 MPs in the Lebanese parliament. It represents the interests of a section of Shia in Lebanon, many of whom were driven from their homes in Palestine in 1948 by Jewish settlers, and are now barred from returning home (whereas a Jew from anywhere in the world is allowed to settle in the West Bank).

The PFLP is "terrorist", Hamas is "terrorist", Hezbollah is "terrorist", the PLO is "terrorist", the DFLP is "terrorist" - anyone who fights back against Zionist (or sometimes American) aggression is labeled a "terrorist".

Hezbollah was formed because Israel invaded Lebanon and began killing Shia there (or letting their helpers do so in Sabra and Shatila). Hezbollah arose to defend the Shia from this foreign invasion.

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by throwaway_32475 on Sunday July 30, 2017 @09:10AM (#14885796)
The section on Hezbollah in this comment contains a ton of factual errors.

>Hezbollah has 12 MPs in the Lebanese parliament. It represents the interests of a section of Shia in Lebanon,

So far so good

>many of whom were driven from their homes in Palestine in 1948 by Jewish settlers, and are now barred from returning home (whereas a Jew from anywhere in the world is allowed to settle in the West Bank).

Nope, you're confusing Palestinians and Shia Lebanese. Not a single Shia was driven from their home by the creation of Israel in 1948. Hezbollah does not represent Palestinians in Lebanon (who were driven out in 1948) because they are not citizens of Lebanon, despite being born there at this point.

>The PFLP is "terrorist", Hamas is "terrorist", Hezbollah is "terrorist", the PLO is "terrorist", the DFLP is "terrorist" - anyone who fights back against Zionist (or sometimes American) aggression is labeled a "terrorist".

Is blowing up a Jewish center in Beunos Aires (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_bombing) or killing 22 school children (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27alot_massacre) "fighting back against Zionist aggression"?

>Hezbollah was formed because Israel invaded Lebanon and began killing Shia there (or letting their helpers do so in Sabra and Shatila).

Again, you are confusing Palestinians with Shias. Sabra and Shatila was a Palestinian refugee camp. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by auganov on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:59AM (#14885081)
Right, "terrorist" is a pretty relative term. Organizations calling for genocide of the Jewish people, descendants of those who tried, or allies of such. That's a mouthful but much more fitting.
Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by loceng on Monday July 31, 2017 @10:29AM (#14892298)
This is the type of example scenario where I think 'AI' could come in handy - or really posting bots - as to insert at minimum a link to when certain phrases or statements are detected on public or semi-public forums and the like. A lot of misinformation can quickly get shared, generally one side or the other using as propaganda.
Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by joshuamorton on Sunday July 30, 2017 @01:42AM (#14884591)
Your comment inspired me to look this up:

> The scandal largely dealt with the inclusion of an essay by American linguist Noam Chomsky, entitled "Some Elementary Comments on the Rights of Freedom of Expression", as an introduction to Faurisson's book, without Chomsky's knowledge or approval.

Emphasis mine.

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by alacombe on Sunday July 30, 2017 @01:50AM (#14884601)
False, Chomsky did originally grant permission for the essay to be used for any purpose. [source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair]
Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by gizmo686 on Sunday July 30, 2017 @01:55AM (#14884608)
Since we are talking about it, here[0] is Chomsky's writing in question.

I'll just leave the paragraph from wikipedia here:

>Chomsky granted permission for the essay to be used for any purpose. Serge Thion and Pierre Guillaume then used it as a preface when publishing a book by Faurisson, without Chomsky's knowledge.[9] Later Chomsky requested that the essay not be used in this manner, since he believed the French intellectual community was so incapable of understanding freedom of speech that it would only confuse them further, but his request came too late for the book to be changed.[9] Chomsky subsequently said that asking for the preface to be removed is his one regret in the matter.[9]

[0] https://chomsky.info/19801011/

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by alacombe on Sunday July 30, 2017 @01:47AM (#14884593)
Because it is not up to the State to legislate what constitute the historical truth.

Moreover, this whole mess gave Robert Faurisson airtime on national TV, and made him look like a martyr. This is the last thing you want from such person. Let holocaust deniers and KKK member distribute pamphlet at intersection or self publish their book, that going to be the biggest audience they'll ever have. By going after them, you encourage them in their quest and prove their conspiracy theory right.

Same goes with provocateur ala Milo whose only success is based on thin skinned SJW.

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by RealityNow on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:09AM (#14884626)
Because he's one of the most prominent, influential, and cited intellectuals of our generation.
Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by krona on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:42AM (#14885037)
Perhaps your generation. Of those things that gave him prominence and influence, they were done decades before I was born.

The guy is a linguist. I wish he would stick to what he's good at.

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by rantanplan on Sunday July 30, 2017 @08:22AM (#14885641)
> I wish he would stick to what he's good at

Thankfully he didn't follow your advice, hence he revolutionized every domain he touched.

You really should read more about his contributions to various disciplines.

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by RealityNow on Monday July 31, 2017 @12:03PM (#14893132)
I'm in my 20s. What's amazing is that his commentary on politics, economics, and international relations is just as relevant now as it was back then.
Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by 0xFFC on Sunday July 30, 2017 @01:55AM (#14884609)
BTW US army has killed far more innocent people than Hezbollah (has Hezbollah ever killed any innocent people?).

Would be acceptable if we call US army terrorist army?

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by MichaelMoser123 on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:44AM (#14884729)
Another problem is his position/denial of the Cambodian genocide by Khmer Rouge. What does Chomsky nowadays say on this matter? Does he acknowledge that his judgement was wrong? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial
Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by no2empire on Sunday July 30, 2017 @03:02AM (#14884783)
Nowadays Chomsky points out something you can read in the December 23rd, 1985 edition of the New York Times - that six years after the hue and cry all over the US about "Cambodian genocide", the US began sending millions to Cambodia in order to arm Pol Pot.

Of course at this time the US was using its power at the UN to keep the Cambodian UN seat in the hands of the political coalition that the Cambodian communists belonged to.

He also points out the mass murder the US air force carried out in Cambodia, bombing rural peasant villages. That the US media ignored a genocide in East Timor that was happening at the time of the communists taking power in Cambodia.

Insofar as "denial of the Cambodian genocide" by Chomsky - could you give an example of a statement he made about Cambodia which was not true? If you are unable to do that, it is just mud-throwing - in some other thread he's said to be denying Nazi genocide in Europe because he was opposed to the jailing of a French professor accused of being a holocaust denier.

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by MichaelMoser123 on Sunday July 30, 2017 @03:34AM (#14884884)
> could you give an example of a statement he made about Cambodia which was not true? If you are unable to do that, it is just mud-throwing

Mud-throwing? I am just siting a wikipedia article, please care to follow the link. Even Chomsky sort of acknowledged that he was wrong on the subject, but you still can't do that.

"Cambodia scholar Bruce Sharp criticized Chomsky and Herman's Nation article, as well as their subsequent work After the Cataclysm (1979), saying that while Chomsky and Herman added disclaimers about knowing the truth of the matter, and about the nature of the regimes in Indochina, they nevertheless expressed a set of views by their comments and their use of various sources. For instance, Chomsky portrayed Porter and Hildebrand's book as "a carefully documented study of the destructive American impact on Cambodia and the success of the Cambodian revolutionaries in overcoming it, giving a very favorable picture of their programs and policies, based on a wide range of sources." Sharp, however, found that 33 out of 50 citations in one chapter of Porter and Hildebrand's book derived from the Khmer Rouge government and six from China, the Khmer Rouge's principal supporter.[8]

Veteran Cambodia correspondent Nate Thayer said of Chomsky and Herman's Nation article that they "denied the credibility of information leaking out of Cambodia of a bloodbath underway and viciously attacked the authors of reportage suggesting many were suffering under the Khmer Rouge."[18]

Journalist Andrew Anthony in the London Observer, said later that the Porter and Hildebrand's book "cravenly rehashed the Khmer Rouge's most outlandish lies to produce a picture of a kind of radical bucolic idyll."[19] Chomsky, he said, questioned "refugee testimony" believing that "their stories were exaggerations or fabrications, designed for a western media involved in a 'vast and unprecedented propaganda campaign' against the Khmer Rouge government, 'including systematic distortion of the truth.'"

Beachler cited reports that Chomsky's attempts to counter charges of Khmer Rouge atrocities also consisted of writing letters to editors and publications. He said: "Examining materials in the Documentation Center of Cambodia archives, American commentator Peter Maguire found that Chomsky wrote to publishers such as Robert Silver of the New York Review of Books to urge discounting atrocity stories. Maguire reports that some of these letters were as long as twenty pages, and that they were even sharper in tone than Chomsky’s published words."[20] Journalist Fred Barnes also mentioned that Chomsky had written "a letter or two" to the New York Review of Books. Barnes discussed the Khmer Rouge with Chomsky and "the thrust of what he [Chomsky] said was that there was no evidence of mass murder" in Cambodia. Chomsky, according to Barnes, believed that "tales of holocaust in Cambodia were so much propaganda."[21]

Journalist Christopher Hitchens defended Chomsky and Herman. They "were engaged in the admittedly touchy business of distinguishing evidence from interpretations."[22] Chomsky and Herman have continued to argue that their analysis of the situation in Cambodia was reasonable based on the information available to them at the time, and a legitimate critique of the disparities in reporting atrocities committed by communist regimes relative to the atrocities committed by the U.S. and its allies. Nonetheless, in 1993, Chomsky acknowledged the massive scale of the Cambodian genocide in the documentary film Manufacturing Consent. He said, "I mean the great act of genocide in the modern period is Pol Pot, 1975 through 1978 - that atrocity - I think it would be hard to find any example of a comparable outrage and outpouring of fury."[8]

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by contingencies on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:51AM (#14884752)
We do not pretend to know where the truth lies amidst these sharply conflicting assessments; rather, we again want to emphasize some crucial points. What filters through to the American public is a seriously distorted version of the evidence available, emphasizing alleged Khmer Rouge atrocities and downplaying or ignoring the crucial U.S. role, direct and indirect, in the torment that Cambodia has suffered

That sounds pretty balanced to me.

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by varjag on Sunday July 30, 2017 @10:20AM (#14886047)
Would you allow the same middle ground fallacy for Holocaust?
Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by AimHere on Sunday July 30, 2017 @10:57AM (#14886209)
Check the dates.

If you were trying to assess claims of an extraordinary and unprecedented mechanised genocide by Nazi Germany in 1943 or early 1944, when it wasn't obvious what was actually going on, and when all people had to go on were reports from a handful of escapees and refugees, then yes, being careful with the evidence would be the appropriate response to the Holocaust claims available at the time, just as being careful with Cambodian refugee reports would have been appropriate in 1977 or 1978.

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by varjag on Monday July 31, 2017 @07:55AM (#14891102)
Quite contrary, it was fairly well reported. The reason Chomsky grudgingly accepted the fact of genocide was the Third Indochina War, when coincidentally in 1978 the communist Vietnam moved in to displace Pol Pot. Were it not Vietnamese but say Americans, he'd deny the genocide to the day.

Right now he denies that chemical attacks by Assad govt have happened in Syria, so the old man is still in the same denial business - OPCW reports be damned.

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by nemonemo on Sunday July 30, 2017 @03:01AM (#14884782)
Chomsky is by no means a saint, but in the wikipedia article you cited, I could not locate any direct "denial" of genocide done by Khmer Rouge. He seems to have questioned the credibility of certain accounts, which seems a necessary role of any reasonable intellect. It was 1970s, so information from the other side of the globe was harder to confirm. To me, it seems quite understandable for someone to raise questions around any information that outrageously deviates from the norm, which is the case for the activity done by Khmer Rouge.
Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by jondubois on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:11AM (#14884963)
I agree, it's better to risk doubting the truth than to risk believing lies.

Once you believe something, it's harder to go back because you start stacking stuff on top.

Re:Talks at Google: Noam Chomsky [video] by gizmo686 on Sunday July 30, 2017 @03:38AM (#14884895)
>Chomsky and Herman have continued to argue that their analysis of the situation in Cambodia was reasonable based on the information available to them at the time, and a legitimate critique of the disparities in reporting atrocities committed by communist regimes relative to the atrocities committed by the U.S. and its allies. Nonetheless, in 1993, Chomsky acknowledged the massive scale of the Cambodian genocide in the documentary film Manufacturing Consent. He said, "I mean the great act of genocide in the modern period is Pol Pot, 1975 through 1978 - that atrocity - I think it would be hard to find any example of a comparable outrage and outpouring of fury."[8]